so... what replaces that elusive 231 ???

"MIKE... are you texting on the forum"

Wht U tkin abt, Wls?


"It was neither as economical as Bullseye, nor versatile as Unique."

I don't know about 231's economy, as I've never really compared it price wise against Bullseye or anything else. I can't imagine that the price differential would be all that much, though.

I do know that, in about 95% of my reloading, it does EXACTLY what I want it to do.

As for Unique, I've never been shy in my opinion about Unique. Personally, I can't stand the stuff. It's filthy dirty and it meters for crap.

But it is, and this is something that I've said many times over the years here, the single most flexible and versatile powder ever offered to handloaders in the United States. And by a wide margin.
 
Bullseye, bullseye, bullseye.

In fact for Bullseye, W231 was the substitute.
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That. I started using 231 because Bullseye became unfindable, and my local guy had 231.

Joy of joys, I managed to get a couple pound jars of Bullseye at a show at the beginning of summer, so I'm set (at the rate I use it) for a while.
 
I just tried some of the new Hodgdon CFE-pistol. Why? Because the LGS had it but did not have, have not had, any 231 for over a year. It is a fine ball powder, it's also about the same charge weight, so it fits as a replacement. As for how it works, just fine! I use almost exclusively powder coated boolits, so the copper eliminating properties are wasted.
 
MIKE IRWIN, not to start a "flaming war" or whatever it's called, but I generally found that getting performance equivalent to Bullseye loads from W231, I had to elevate the charge weight from 0.5 grains to 1.5grains per round, depending on the caliber of interest. May not seem like much, but 4.0/Bullseye/225TC was the equivalent of 5.0/W231/225TC. Per pound of powder (assuming no spillage), that's 1750 rounds with Bullseye, vs. 1400/lb. with W231. When you're shooting a lot, that's a big diff.

Like you, I'm not a huge fan of Bullseye, but I recognize its value. UNlike you, I AM a fan of Unique, despite its tendency to "meter like cornflakes" and not burn as cleanly as many powders. I find both problems abate quickly as charge weights go above 5 - 6gr, and heavy crimps, heavy bullets, and higher velocities are sought. At it's CLEANEST, Unique will likely never be considered a "clean-burning" powder. Given its versatility, I can live with it. Herco, it's slower burning younger brother, behaves in very much the same way.
 
Yeah, 231 isn't the cleanest burning of Hodgdon's offerings.
Unfortunately the very clean Clays selections are also being phased out, according to another thread on the forum.
So, as long as it's available, Titegroup will be it.
Of course, it might be the next hard sought after powder and we'll be back where we started.
Can't win for losing.
Best be on the look out for the recommended CFE, too, maybe.
 
(Mike) I don't know about 231's economy, as I've never really compared it price wise against Bullseye or anything else.
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(Kosh) I generally found that getting performance equivalent to Bullseye loads from W231, I had to elevate the charge weight from 0.5 grains to 1.5grains per round, depending on the caliber of interest.
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Based on my extensive experience, in the 38 Special target ammo world, the difference to achieve similar performance between W231 and Bullseye is about 0.4 grains per round (in most bullet weights/types). But either way, save Vihtavuori, economy is never a factor for me a in powder purchase/selection. It's the least costly of the components; with the difference being but fractions of a penny per round.

(Mike) As for Unique, I've never been shy in my opinion about Unique. Personally, I can't stand the stuff. It's filthy dirty and it meters for crap.
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(Kosh) I AM a fan of Unique, despite its tendency to "meter like cornflakes" and not burn as cleanly as many powders. I find both problems abate quickly as charge weights go above 5 - 6gr, and heavy crimps, heavy bullets, and higher velocities are sought.
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I think we all agree that Unique meters crummy. For me, yes, it does, but not to the point where it makes inconsistent ammo. Yeah, trying to get my hopper set to the correct charge weight has me at times muttering a few choice words that my granddaughter shouldn't hear. But it's not that big o' deal.

As for Unique running clean, you gotta load it up (we all know this). Of course it begs the question: If you have to load it up to get it to run clean, then how versatile is it really? I like Unique. I have and use Unique. But I'm going to phase it out of my inventory for this reason. If I have to load it up to get it to run clean, then I'd rather use Power Pistol for the application. And so for that reason, I'm going to phase out my inventory of Unique. I have just over two #'s; will take a couple years for me to exhaust my supply.
 
"MIKE IRWIN, not to start a "flaming war" or whatever it's called, but I generally found that getting performance equivalent to Bullseye loads from W231, I had to elevate the charge weight from 0.5 grains to 1.5grains per round, depending on the caliber of interest."

Well Duh, they're different powders. :p

If the loading data were exactly the same, and produced the same results, they'd be the same powder.

But, velocity vs loading density isn't the only reason to pick a powder.

My first reloads -- 9mm and .38 Special -- were done with 231.

Over the years I've tried many other powders, including Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, the various AAs, etc., and I've never found any that truly beat 231 for its versatility for MY reloading needs -- the cartridges I load and the results I get, both at the loading bench and at the range.

That said, there are some situations in which I do NOT use 231 as I don't consider it to be the best powder for the job.

Most specific is for my .44 Special. The tiny amounts of 231 that constituted top loads were still virtually lost in the case, and I was getting spotty performance and accuracy, most likely due to powder ignition issues due to positioning in the case.

When I switched to Trail Boss, though, it was a completely different story.

Anyway, don't for a moment feel that I'm denigrating your, or anyone else's choice of reloading powders if they choose something other than 231. It's not a contest. It's what works best for us.
 
" If you have to load it up to get it to run clean, then how versatile is it really?"

You're misunderstanding the term versatility, at least for how I'm using it.

Just because it's not clean burning doesn't mean that it's not versatile.

Another good descriptor to replace versatile is, perhaps, flexible. It has an enormous use range, both in terms of cartridges and in terms of loads for those cartridges, a range that few, if any other, powders can match.
 
I'm not questioning Unique's versatility. It is indeed versatile.

I was posing the question rhetorically for the sake of thought provocation. Posing a different perspective, if you will.
 
The only handgun cartridge that I have been reloading for is 45 Colt. I have used a lot of different powders in that caliber over the years, including 231 and HP-38. Even though they were very good powders, I quit using them as I got spoiled for choices with other powders at prices that were too good to pass up, including free. If I can have only one powder for 45 Colt, Unique is the best all-around. And, in my experience, it burns clean in that application. If I want something for lighter loads, I like Titegroup. For somewhat heavier loads, Hodgdon's HS-7 is excellent. For the heaviest loads I care to shoot, AA-9 is about the best. So, no, I will not really miss 231. There are many good substitutes. Those that I have tried near that end of the spectrum include Red Dot, Green Dot AA-2, etc. Oddly, I have never used Bullseye. You will find something and at least make do. And then there are the gun shows where anything can happen. You might even find your precious 231 long after it's discontinued, from somebody's estate that was boarded away until now. You'll be fine.
 
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Stock up, ADI is changing the powders we get here as the Clays family.
Probably be at least couple of years before they get around to Universal, though.
 
Substitute.

we strike the first 6 letters of substitute, leaving "tute."

Then we substitute this for the first 6 letters...

"no frigging way in hell am I using (it a "tute").

In essence, sub is replaced with NO WAY, JOSE.
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I am glad you explained it, because I would never have figured it out.

I have shot tens of thousands of rounds, cumulative, loaded with Bullseye in 32 S&W Long, 9mm, 38 Special, 45 ACP. I am going to load up some very light 44 Special loads and see how they shoot. Bullseye has worked very well when I am not trying for magnum loads, or loads above standard. Unique is the more flexible of the two, and I am always surprised about the negative reactions to Unique. I have shot kegs of W231 in the 45 ACP, it shoots great, just as good as Bullseye. I am not going to say that one is cleaner than the other as I can't tell a difference. Bullseye and W231 soot up my M1911's about the same amount.

I am currently shooting Bullseye in Bullseye pistol competition. Functions the pistol. Can't make any claims about accuracy as I am currently a Marksman class shooter. The worst of the bunch. If there was a lower classification, the NRA would have sent me that card. Bullseye pistol is really hard. I have not broken 700 with a centerfire pistol. Still, when I ask for other's advice on 45 ACP target loads, Bullseye is still a staple.

I am not convinced that the better metering of ball powders, which W231 is one, means all that much on target. I have posted data, another way of saying I am too lazy to look it up right now, of AA #5 compared to Bullseye or Unique. Over my chronographs I do not see that AA #5 gives me tighter velocities spreads than Bullseye, or Unique. My charges are all thrown on a Dillion 550B. If metering made a difference I should see it in velocity spreads.

Besides, we are talking handguns here. The ten ring is around two inches at 50 yards. I have not only not put all my bullets in the ten ring at 50 yards, I sometimes miss the whole target!. Now, with one of my .22LR rifles, I am shooting sub dime sized groups at that distance. Handgun accuracy is sort of relative. Relatively big.
 
Since 231/hp38 dried up I began stocking up on what I could find; titegroup and bullseye. I guess I have done ok.

These are for 38 and 45 acp. I actually came up with a light 357 magnum load with 158 gr plated bullets using titegroup and it turned out to be a fun and accurate load too.
 
"Mike, have you ever tried Herco for your 44 specials?"

Nope. By the time I got the .44 Special and started experimenting with powders for it Trail Boss was just coming out.

After reading a few stories about how it performed, I grabbed some and was immediately hooked.

The only powders I tried were 231, Red Dot (a bit better), and the tail end of some Unique I had around the house. Both Red Dot and Unique were so disgustingly filthy that I abandoned them outright.
 
Well I just purchased 4#'s (4, one-pound containers) of TiteGroup from Cabela's.

Completely untested. Hope it's good stuff.
 
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