So.. I went to the border to shoot today.

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What are you talking about, ccwolff? No one should say no! :rolleyes:

Assertion of individual rights is something we should engage in only when we are not trying to fight a war on terror to... preserve... our... rights. :confused:

When the cops have a job to do (don't they always?) surely you cannot defend a policy of asserting your rights when doing so slows down the potential apprehension of illegal aliens! :barf:

Come on, ccwolff! There's a bonfire going, upon which you're supposed to willingly sacrifice your privacy and your rights in the name of Safety! C'mon, let's have 'em!


-azurefly
 
How many of you forgot that in the initial post, ccwolff said this:

He then states that he knows that I am "just a shooter" and has already radioed in that and he just wants to be sure. And further asks why I would refuse.


The BPA ADMITTED that he knew that ccwolff was not really suspected of being anything other than a guy who goes down to the border to shoot. Real suspicion would have meant that ccwolff was bent over and cuffed while the BPA checked everything out.

So stop handing us this, "The agent was just making sure," crap. :barf:

-azurefly
 
So, CCWolf, where, exactly were you shooting?

There are quite a few places along the border where the mere presence of a vehicle raises red flags to BP agents. I know some will shriek, "OMG, 'mere presence' is now suspiscious!?!?! oh the jackboots, oh the jackboots!" but the reality to someone who is intimately familiar with the region will say that some areas are dangerous smuggling routes and should be avoided when possible. If you're keenly interested, I could show you around to some.

LEOs can tell you anything they want to gain your confidence. Telling you that, "he knows that I am "just a shooter" and has already radioed in that and he just wants to be sure" doesn't make it so. He may have used the same tactic, received permission to search, and discovered 500lbs of marijuana exactly where your car was parked, only last week and he's not obligated to tell you such things.

A quick conversation with somebody in one of those areas dispells 90% of those flags, and a cursory search, the other 10%.

It's common for smugglers to send "clean and apparently legitimate" scouts out before sending their illicit cargo, whatever it may be.

Allowing the agent to search could have satisfied that last 10% of suspiscion and enabled him to get back to his duties.

I'm not saying that you should consent to any search, but when you see that the circumstances are reasonable for the officer or agent, think about it.
 
There must be a reason.

I've talked to a few attorneys. I've spoken to a few of our local police and deputy sheriffs. I've had conversations with some of our local judges. One could conclude that there must be a reason why all of them say that you should never, ever consent to a search.

A friend of mine, who is on the Idaho Drug Task Force, explained it to me in this manner: Do you go hunting or fishing without getting a license from F&G? No? Then why help an officer go fishing without the proper license?

I can be friendly while talking to an officer. I don't have to be confrontational. But when he asks permission to poach on my property, I'll tell him no and go about my business.

Some of you, it would seem, don't mind the officer poaching. That's your business, not mine. I always get a license, if I'm gonna go hunting or fishing. I expect nothing less from others.
 
The statists who urge accomodation in the name of

"cooperation" and our combined will in the War On Terror will not appreciate this link.

Those who believe in asserting what few rights remain and defending their further erosion against attacks under the guise of National Defense grasp its point:

http://www.aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf

What you tolerate, you validate;
What you put up with - YOU DESERVE!
 
Do tell me, who is actually exercising his rights... the person who gives an emphatic no regardless of the situation, or the person who gives conscious thought to what is going on and makes a conscious decision based on those circumstances.

How about . . . both? Is a person more validly excercising the rights guaranteed by the 1st Amendment when he just speaks his mind, or when he engages in a period of careful reflection and thought, and then speaks?

As for the original encounter, no harm, no foul. The BP agent thought you were suspicious enough for another look, based on your activity. He took the look, tried to get you to let him go farther, and took what he could get and everyone when their separate ways. He was doing his job, you were excercising your rights, so it becomes a nonevent.

As for consenting to a search just to get my name scratched off a list, no way. It's not about planting evidence, or your property disappearing (two officers in East TN are going to be spending some quality time with cellmates for stealing during traffic stops so we know that happens). It's about the fact that no one can really tell what is or isn't legal in a given jursidiction at a given time, or what a cop might (rightly or wrongly) think might be illegal. Open the door and let them search, and a temporary inconvenience can turn into a long ordeal.
 
cooperation" and our combined will in the War On Terror will not appreciate this link.

Those who believe in asserting what few rights remain and defending their further erosion against attacks under the guise of National Defense grasp its point:

Wow. The ACLU finally discovers the monitoring programs. Where were they when Echelon became public knowledge?
 
A friend of mine, who is on the Idaho Drug Task Force, explained it to me in this manner: Do you go hunting or fishing without getting a license from F&G? No? Then why help an officer go fishing without the proper license?

Exactly. Thanks for posting info from LE that clarifies this. God help us the day that "if you are innocent you won't mind me searching" becomes the accepted norm in this country.

Springmom
 
I don't think the BP agent was suspicious about smuggling people. I think he was suspicious about smuggling drugs. Lots of people who smuggle drugs are on drugs themselves, and are prone to weird behavior. And, people who smuggle drugs are often known to meet in unsettled areas to make drug deals.

The officer may have thought that speeding along the border, out in the desert away from everyone else, and then randomly stopping out in the desert in the middle of nowhere might have been "curious." It's not unreasonable to think that a person out in the desert who was waiting to meet someone might begin to find ways to "pass the time," i.e., plinking against the rock face. (In fact, Hunter Thompson used to love to go plinking in the desert.)

I think the officer was justified in finding this situation "odd." But, it clearly did not rise to the level of suspicion necessary for a search. (Car searches are COMPLICATED! I know this, and I'll not try to explain it by misusing words like "probable cause.") Anyway, I think the officer was justified in making a fair inquiry, and the thread-poster was justified in declining consent.

All went well...
 
Late to the game

Wow. The ACLU finally discovers the monitoring programs. Where were they when Echelon became public knowledge?

Or Carnivore?

The ACLU is composed largely of a la carte Constitutionalists (apparently there are some on this forum), but the 4th Amendment is one of its touchstones. I'd have thought it would have done a lot more, a lot sooner.

Then again - it's for the children/the War On Terror/your own good.............. :barf:
 
The ACLU is composed largely of a la carte Constitutionalists (apparently there are some on this forum), but the 4th Amendment is one of its touchstones. I'd have thought it would have done a lot more, a lot sooner.

Doing a bit more research shows they were actually protesting Echelon and Carnivore back in the day. My comment came from the fact that I'd never heard them discuss it, but that's my lack of knowledge, not their lack of action.
 
If you come across someone in the desert with a firearm who you don't know from Adam and you're going to approach him like you two are old drinking buddies? I don't think so. You're going to be cautious and do everything to make sure that everything with the situation is kosher.

I've been out in various parts of the AZ desert shooting.

There are prisons nearby in some places.

There are illegal aliens around in nearly all places.

There are forest service rangers, county sherriffs or border patrol in many places.

I've been asked by LE if they can search my stuff... I tell them "no", we sit and BS about guns for a while. I've been asked by LE or other folks if they can shoot one of my guns. I tell these complete strangers "no".

If I'm out with buddies, the answer is still "no" for anyone I don't know well.

Those 10 little rules in the bill of rights are there for my protection with strangers and representations of authority. They are codes of conduct for everybody's safety and respectful discourse between strangers.

Just stand hard and fast about the right things, and be courteous about all other things. It'll get you through 99.9% of situations like this. The other 0.1%, is why we have the 2nd.
 
How about . . . both? Is a person more validly excercising the rights guaranteed by the 1st Amendment when he just speaks his mind, or when he engages in a period of careful reflection and thought, and then speaks?


Bingo.... we finally have someone here who is actually thinking instead of rolling out the standard paranoid anti-leo response.

You can still exercise your rights by consenting to a search.
 
buzz knox said:
Doing a bit more research shows they were actually protesting Echelon and Carnivore back in the day. My comment came from the fact that I'd never heard them discuss it, but that's my lack of knowledge, not their lack of action.


Then who is responsible for the failure to bring these subjects out LOUDLY before the PUBLIC in such a way as to light a fire of opposition to them? Did the ACLU drop the ball? Did the media?

These things happened on the sly, pretty much. When anti-gun legislation is proposed, the NRA is out there protesting it as loudly as it can, and gathering as much opposition support as it can, until the vote is cast and the chips fall where they may. Many times, because of the NRA's efforts, proposed anti-gun legislation fails.

Why weren't major news organizations putting knowledge of Echelon and Carnivore out before the public so that we could all be clamoring to write and call our congressmen to scream NO about it?


-azurefly
 
Point of note:

The word "exercise" or "exercising" in this context *means* that you are refusing consent EVEN THOUGH though you have nothing to hide. You *exercise* your body in preparation for the big game. It's is practicing or exercising when nothing is really at stake. Nothing's at stake until the whistle blows at the beginning of the big game, and nothing's at stake in tendering your refusal to consent to a search, in the case of a law-abiding individual, because even if you did allow a search, nothing illegal would be found, and thus the refusal is a moot point. BUT, you PRACTICE exercising your rights, because the SCOTUS says you can. That's the definition of exercising your rights. If you actually HAVE illegal aliens in your trunk, then you're not exercising the right, you're merely enforcing it. So the term "exercising" literally has no meaning *if we were to never do it, even though we have nothing to hide*.

It's entirely up to you, and nobody's wrong or right for exercising (refusing consent) or not exercising. But the key point is, exercising your right should NOT be in and of itself considered to be suspicious or wrong, to an LEO, unless and until the SCOTUS changed the 4A interpretations. If the cop HAS to ask consent, then that means by definition that he has no probable cause, or search incident to lawful arrest, or search for inventory purposes (also incident to lawful arrest). If the cop has no probable cause, then why should you be bothered if you in fact are not doing anything wrong. If the cop says "fine, I recognize that you are refusing to consent, but I am going to search anyway, because I believe that I have probable cause based on x, y, and z suspicious circumstances", then say "fine, officer, go right ahead and search on that basis, but not consent", because then, if you ever need to fight it in court, you *MAY* have a basis (fight, let's say, a trumped up charge of gun possession that is entirely unconstitutional in itself). However, OTOH, if you DO consent, and don't force the officer to articulate (at least later on) some probable cause that can stand up to scrutiny, then you're toast on the issue in court - you have no possible arguable basis for suppression, because you consented.

And the BP's job is to stop the influx of illegal contraband, be it aliens or drugs. But if the agent is convinced that this person is an American citizen out there to shoot, then what contraband might he have, other than say his own supply of pot (if he's a pothead), or some guns for shooting or self-defense - that's not the BP's job because the contraband is ALREADY IN the country, not being smuggled across the BORDER (as in border patrol), so why in the heck is he asking anyway? Now if you're dark-complected like most illegals, and/or don't have proof of citizenship to the officer's satisfaction, or if some independent factor causes the agent to believe that you are an american-citizen-white-coyote, then I can see asking to search. But it sound like in this person's situation, it was abundantly clear that this was not the case. After all, as pointed out, coyotes and drug smugglers, even if caucasion and even if american citizens, don't typically go out in broad daylight and raise attention to themselves, by, let's say, shooting a bunch of guns!

If you consent, great! The officer is happier, and you're happy to (assuming you're law-abiding, and assuming that there are no unconstitutional gun laws on the books in the state in question).

If you refuse consent, great! You're exercising your rights. You can expect the officer to be unhappy, but not have any adverse consequences accrue to you from it. In this case, it sounds like the officer ultimately did a good job, in eventually accepting the refusal,and not trumping up some kind of BS probable cause. We should expect LEO's to be suspicious - that's their job. But we should also expect them to be properly trained in constitutional vs. unconstitutional searches, and recognize that a no is a no when it comes to consensual searches.

In any event, be polite and courteous to the officer/agent. And if possible, explain your reasoning for refusal - that you are simply a student of constitutional law, don't care to be bothered, and are thus merely exercising your rights.

Personally, I probably WOULD have consented in that specific particular situation (then again, I don't do drugs or other illegal things). But if you don't consent, guilty or not, that's your right!

Dang, azredhawk, how long does one have to know you before they can shoot your guns? I always let strangers at the range shoot my guns if they care to. Only exceptions would be if it's a handgun (which is problematic safety-wise, because a noob can put their hand in front of the barrel easily, and turn it past 90 degrees easily), and if they seem pretty noobish to guns.
 
stage 2 said:
You can still exercise your rights by consenting to a search.


Well, you can exercise them next time, anyway. :rolleyes:

Fact is, when you consent to the search, you are not exercising your right to not be searched without cause -- you are abrogating it.

It is your right to abrogate your right, for sure. And if they arrest you because of something they find in the search, you can also abrogate your fifth amendment right, and go blabbing on and on and giving them statements they will later use to crucify you in criminal court. You don't have to exercise your fifth amendment right to remain silent.

I don't know why you feel that because a person chooses not to exercise a right, that his doing so is equivalent to exercising the right. Technically, abrogating the right against warrantless search doesn't prejudice you from exercising the right to refuse the next time they ask, but if enough people send the message to the police that they are willing to be searched at any time because they have "nothing to hide," eventually the police will view any refusal to submit to a search at all as something suspicious, and it will cause more and more people trouble if they then have the audicity to flex their rights.


-azurefly
 
I don't know why you feel that because a person chooses not to exercise a right, that his doing so is equivalent to exercising the right.

Because I'm trying to make the point that an informed citizen who makes an educated choice is still exercising their rights. As I am the sole decision maker, I'm the one who is determining whether or not I feel like letting the cop take a peek. That single decision right there is what my rights are all about. Its not the result, its the process.
 
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STAGE 2
So consent to the search. Let them search your home without a warrant, too. And your financial records and your medical records and your DNA and your ...! Help them make the rope to hang you, dig your own grave, assist them all you can! Be a good slave, uh, I mean citizen.
After all, you don't have anything to hide do you?:rolleyes:

badbob
 
STAGE 2
So consent to the search. Let them search your home without a warrant, too. And your financial records and your medical records and your DNA and your ...! Help them make the rope to hang you, dig your own grave, assist them all you can! Be a good slave, uh, I mean citizen.
After all, you don't have anything to hide do you?

Bob, you clearly didn't read anything I said, and from what you wrote, even if you had you probably couldn't comprehend it.

The fact that you are bringing in things about homes, DNA and personal records shows that you are just grasping at straws.
 
Well, we did have someone (Samurai, I think) saying that he favors the government compiling our DNA on file. He comes down in your camp on this issue, so maybe there was an association made.

stage 2 said:
Because I'm trying to make the point that an informed citizen who makes an educated choice is still exercising their rights.


No, that person is choosing to NOT exercise his rights.

If a person has something he wishes to say against the government, but he figures that things will go more smoothly for him if he just keeps his mouth shut and keeps it to himself, is that an EXERCISE of his 1st Amendment rights, or is it a decision to NOT exercise his 1st Amendment rights?

So, if a person has the choice of exercising his 4th and 5th Amendment rights when a cop asks him to search his vehicle, and he decides not to stand on his rights and refuse the search that he is not obligated to allow, is he really "EXERCISING" his rights, or is he making a personal decision against invoking his rights (possibly because he knows the cop could decide to give him a major hassle in exchange for his "contempt of cop")?


-azurefly
 
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