So I shot my first deer with my 25-06, didn’t happen like I expected...

Just thought, since we are talking about deer hunting and whether or not they drop or run, that I should mention the secondary use of a rangefinder. Once you have fired the rifle, range to the spot where the deer had been standing. Then stroll to where you think that spot was and range back to where you fired from until you find that exact range. It’s a fast efficient way to find the blood trail. As I found, many times, it can be tough to find the exact spot where the deer had been when the shot was fired.

I used to use a landmark approach, such as the deer was standing next to that small dark green bush. Well, when you walk out 250 yards, the bushes all look alike. Which bush was it?
 
I prefer a broadside high shoulder shot on deer with a rifle...because it has a bunch of CNS nerve bundles at or near that location.

"The shoulder shot is the way to go if you have a bullet that will break bone reliably, and if you're shooting something big that may object to the proceedings."

"It is critical for every hunter to master the shoulder shot, as it is the most effective and humane means of killing a deer with a firearm."

Source: http://wiredtohunt.com/2009/11/13/th...shoulder-shot/
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Hmmm, looked at the article. The X for the proper shot placement is not on the brachial plexus he says to be shooting. The brachial plexus is the nerve complex ventrally coming out of the last 3 cervical and first 2-3 thoracic vertebrae. His shot placement is farther back by the 5th thoracic vertebra, missing the brachial plexus, though just under the spine, possibly close enough to cause damage hydraulically to it, effectively rendering it temporarily or permanently disabled, at least until the deer succumbs to the damage otherwise inflicted to the lungs and such.

His shot will "break bone," clipping the scapula, maybe both, ribs, missing the spine. Scapular blade breaks where he indicates are painful, but not necessarily crippling.

From the article...
David E. Petzal, when speaking of the shoulder shot says, “Almost always, when a critter is struck there and the bullet does its job, the beast goes down right away or within a few steps.
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If he would have destroyed the brachial plexus as claimed, the deer would not be walking. The nerves of the brachial plexus control forelimb movement.

This isn't to say that the shot isn't good for killing deer. I just think the guy is coming up with post hoc medical sounding rationalizations. He needs to be shooting farther forward to hit the brachial plexus. He needs to be shooting lower down and forward and breaking the shoulder blade at the joint with the humerus or breaking the humerus for the shot to be crippling.

To claim the shot will break bone sounds really good, but pretty much any shot through the rib cage is likely to break some bone. In and of itself, that just isn't sufficient. You need to break specific bones and some need to be broken in specific areas if you actually are talking about keeping the animal anchored.

He goes on to say...
So remember, for the quickest, most effective and humane killing of a deer, aim at the shoulder, hold steady and put the hammer down. The buck of your dreams should be dead in his tracks and waiting for your arrival.
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This is wrong. The quickest and most effective and humane killing of a deer is a shot through the brain or brain stem. It may not be the easiest shot to make, but it is an absolutely effective shot.
 
Since we can't x-ray deer before shooting, I personally line up the shot even with the front edge of where a vertical leg would be and ~3/4 up the body.

I haven't a clue which vertebrae is there, precisely, but I can tell you that no deer I've ever hit with that aim point has taken a single step after. Rarely do they so much as lift their head or kick afterword.

I have no qualms about the good old double lung shot either. A properly placed bullet fired from a sufficiently powerful cartridge has never failed to leave a sufficient blood trail for me, be it 5 feet or 150 yards.
 
Why is it many who buy a fast stepping cartridge automatically shoot the heaviest bullet weights available on all size of animals?_??
Seems to me someone looking to buy a 1/4 bore 06 would study up on a cartridges reputation. {found in most reputable hand loaders published books} Makes no sense loading 117 gr for deer size{thin skinned} animals. On this particular occasion the 117 bullet weight has little benefit over a 150 gr bullet fired in a chambered labeled> 30-06.

Want to see head turning 1/4 bore 06 bullet performance mccraggen?
87 & 100 gr S/SP__ both are known to garner its shooter a smile. Be it paper targets or deer size animals. 117 gr. not so much due to its much lower muzzle velocity.
 
On deer and elk I have seen more "bang-flops" with my 270s then any other caliber. Why?
I don't really know. I have a theory, but it's just a theory. But that's what I have seen from 50+ years of hunting and guiding. What I have seen is fact, not theroy.

I also own and use a 25-06 at times, and I have found the Sierra bullets can sometimes be a bit erratic with they hit, turning off course inside the deer quite often. Burgers also are erratic. I have seen the same thing with Hornady and Speer bullets too, but less often.

Oddly the Hollow Point Sierras are BETTER then their boat tailed lead tipped "game kings" and penetrate straighter and deeper. That sounds exactly backwards of what I would have guessed, but that what I have seen. I may get called crazy ---- but I have seen it several times.

The bullets that seem to drop deer the fastest from my 25-06 are the Nosler Partitions and the Hornady and Nosler bonded bullets.
 
I feel like I have learnt a lot with this discussion, fyi the red deer buck we shot would have been around 180 kilo so close to 400 pound!


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"Oddly the Hollow Point Sierras are BETTER then their boat tailed lead tipped "game kings" and penetrate straighter and deeper. That sounds exactly backwards of what I would have guessed, but that what I have seen."

In preparation for a Buckmasters sponsored handicapped youth hunt,I loaded some .257 HP Gamekings at a starting load level for use on big northern Wisconsin bucks.
Prior to that hunt, I killed three Midwestern whitetails at home to ensure the suitability of this bullet/load. The .257 90 grain BTHP Gamekings @ 2750 fps MV did a fine job at the limited range we needed.
The smaller local doe deer 100-150 yard hits showed full penetration with modest but adequate expansion. The 250+# Wisconsin buck hit @ 50 yards was dead on his feet when the little bullet took the top off his heart. Expanded bullet was found under the hide on the off side.
I've killed several deer using a 22/250 loaded with Sierra 55 grain BTHP "game bullets". Penetration was adequate but not pass through but what does one expect from a 55 grain bullet @ 3400 fps MV hitting a 150# deer @ 150 yards.
 
The brain shot is the most difficult and risky shot, because deer move their heads to look around and it's easy to hit them in the snout/jaw by mistake. Then, you have a situation where the deer runs off and dies from starvation because it can't eat.

Shoulder shot is the best for me. Lung shot is deadly, but may let the deer run off over a hundred yards, if a bit high. The high lung shot doesn't leave much blood for the first 30 yards or more, so it's difficult to follow in tight evergreens, etc.

Heart shot and they almost always go about 80 yards before they drop. The only good thing about it is that they often leave a good blood trail to follow.
 
I agrees, light and fast works best for thin skinned, easily killed critters like deer. The only exception being where open spaces might require very long shots (300+ yards) in wind.
I love the performance of the Barbes TTSX bullets. They often are made lighter than any other bullet available. I use 80gr in .243 and 110gr in 7mm and .30-06. They make 80gr in .257 so that’s what I’d use there too.

Generally speaking, most all modern cartridges will fire the light TTSX bullets between 3,250-3,600 FPS. The .25-06 is listed over 3,800. :eek: I guarantee that would be incredibly effective.
 
Why is it many who buy a fast stepping cartridge automatically shoot the heaviest bullet weights available on all size of animals?_??
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Oh, there are a whole lot of reasons why people opt to go heavy with fast or slow moving cartridges, often heavier than they need. I will sum them up by saying there seems to be a prevailing fear of insufficiency in the gun world, which translates to ballistics as well. You never want to undershoot an animal, not do enough damage. Bigger is better. More is better. You can fail to kill with going too small, but you can't really overkill. Its all perception.
 
Hunted white tail all my life. I blew the heart out of one and it still made it 75 yards. They are sometimes really impressive even after they are walking dead
 
Heart shot deer will occasionally go into --- what is called --- a "death run," traveling at running pace that will sometimes cover 100 yards.
 
I have not hunted deer, but why don't more people aim for the neck, just below the head? I imagine it would be pretty easy to either damage the spine, major arteries, or wind pipe, especially with expanding bullets. There isn't nearly as much muscle there compared to the shoulders so penetration should be easy. Is it because it is a smaller target to hit, where it could injure the animal rather than kill it?
 
stephen426 said:
I have not hunted deer, but why don't more people aim for the neck, just below the head? I imagine it would be pretty easy to either damage the spine, major arteries, or wind pipe, especially with expanding bullets. There isn't nearly as much muscle there compared to the shoulders so penetration should be easy. Is it because it is a smaller target to hit, where it could injure the animal rather than kill it?
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It's a small target that moves almost as much as the head and, frankly, is entirely unnecessary 99% of the time.

For the VAST majority of hunters, a dead-center lung shot will be perfectly adequate the VAST majority of the time. Truth be told, aiming anywhere else is almost entirely a matter of personal preference. The types of scenarios that necessitate any other aim point are in the tiny minority.

Deer are relatively small, thin-skinned, light-boned animals. Even with cartridges as small as .223/556, penetration with a reasonable bullet choice is a non-factor. Step up to a .243Win and monolithic (Barnes TTSX) bullets and you can penetrate 3-4 feet in a deer, through bone as large as a hip joint.

Most discussion of aim points and bullet or cartridge choice on animals like whitetail deer are almost entirely academic.
 
It's a small target that moves almost as much as the head and, frankly, is entirely unnecessary 99% of the time.

For the VAST majority of hunters, a dead-center lung shot will be perfectly adequate the VAST majority of the time. Truth be told, aiming anywhere else is almost entirely a matter of personal preference. The types of scenarios that necessitate any other aim point are in the tiny minority.

Deer are relatively small, thin-skinned, light-boned animals. Even with cartridges as small as .223/556, penetration with a reasonable bullet choice is a non-factor. Step up to a .243Win and monolithic (Barnes TTSX) bullets and you can penetrate 3-4 feet in a deer, through bone as large as a hip joint.

Most discussion of aim points and bullet or cartridge choice on animals like whitetail deer are almost entirely academic.
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Hi Brian,
If you were in a survival situation in the wilderness and only had a handgun (let's say 9 mm) with hollow points, would you still say lung shot or would you point of aim change? What animal could you take with a 9mm? Could you take a wild hog with a head shot? I know it is probably not humane, but this would be for a crap hits the fan scenario.

My buddies did a multi-day canoe trip through the Everglades. Say they flipped and lost their food, but were carrying a sidearm. What could they hunt for food?
 
stephen426 said:
Hi Brian,
If you were in a survival situation in the wilderness and only had a handgun (let's say 9 mm) with hollow points, would you still say lung shot or would you point of aim change? What animal could you take with a 9mm? Could you take a wild hog with a head shot? I know it is probably not humane, but this would be for a crap hits the fan scenario.

My buddies did a multi-day canoe trip through the Everglades. Say they flipped and lost their food, but were carrying a sidearm. What could they hunt for food?
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I have intentionally hunted deer (never got a shot) with my Glock 33 in .357sig. Considering that my 25 yard groups with the Glock are probably 4x the size of my 100 yard groups with a rifle, you can bet I'm taking a lung shot. I'd have to be a whole lot better with a handgun to even consider any other location. 9mm is considered by anyone who knows to be a viable self defense round. If it can kill a 200 lb aggressive human, you can bet it can kill a deer, which most likely weighs 90-120lbs... or even less in Florida.
 
Got a bang/Flop today. weird bullet wound, but I hit the neck bones so the kill was instantaneous. I used my Mannlicher 6.5X54, which I made up from an old Breda action that had a rusted and bent barrel. I made a new stock, new barrel and mostly all new everything else, but I think it came out well.
The bullet was a 160 grain Sierra at 2200 FPS. I shot this small Antelope Buck at 177 yards. He is laying in a gully as you can see, and he lifted his head and saw me before I got as close as I wanted to get, but I was down low enough to get steady and solid, so I shot him.

The bullet blew out a large hole right in the front of the neck only about 2-1/2 inches from when it entered. Could have been bullet fragments and bone too. You can see some of it in the 2nd pictures right next to the entry wound. He was nearly sideways to me when I shot, but something turned 90 degrees and exited the front of his throat.
There was an exit on the opposite side about as big as a 50 cent piece, and about 1" from that was an round hole about like one that is made with a 9MM Pistol. Weird. But I see that kind of thing from Sierras not all that infrequently.

My old Mannlicher will not feed spitzers at all. Nothing but round noses. Sierra quit making them (I have only 22 left) I do have about 300 Hornady 160 grain RN bullets and I may try them next time. They seem to shoot just as well. I got 500 PPU 156 grain RN bullet, but I have not used any yet. Anyone out there have any experience with them?

2018 #1 Ant. Buck by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
2018 #1 Ant. Buck 2 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
 
why don't more people aim for the neck, just below the head?
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Its ballzy shooting many hunters won't chance. Gambling a miss garners his quarry goes free. Hunter makes the shot. The shooters reward? _ a 100% undamaged carcass.

Now some timid individuals would preach such shooting is unethical. Me~ I don't think some other having {marksman like} shooting skills are unethical. "For me and those other woodsy sharpshooters >" It's the only way!"
 
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