roashooter
Moderator
so how many here prefer to use modern sabot bullets instead of tradition round ball or slugs for primitive hunting season.
So How Many Here Prefer Sabot Over Round Ball for "Primitive " Hunting Season
- Thread starter roashooter
- Start date
rodwhaincamo
New member
When I first became interested in a muzzleloader and bought my Lyman Deerstalker I researched the patched ball. Finding the horrific BC and SD values of a .490" ball I figured these were about worthless past 50 yds. And so I began looking into various conicals. These seemed much better but still seemed quite inferior to modern bullets and so I was set on working with saboted bullets.
But being a member on a traditional forum I learned that I couldn't view the effectiveness on what I understood concerning modern projectiles. After seeing a ball would most likely give a complete passthrough out even beyond 125 yds and seeing numerous deer and elk pics convinced me to abandon my views and modern projectiles.
I had merely broken in my rifle with PRB with an arbitrary load of 70 grns of 3F powder, though I did try 50 and 100 just for fun. At 50 yds I've yet to find a great hunting load, though I've not tried various lubes or powder charges yet (I moved far away from an outdoor range). I had bought a handful of cast 320 grn Lee REALs to try out. After finding it necessary to use a felt wad my shots were nearly touching and right on. I bought a mold after that!
Where I am stalking isn't generally allowed as hunting lands have several guns with stationed blinds to use. Some of these places view fields and so I have in mind to obtain an additional barrel or another rifle specifically for shooting long range with a Malcolm style scope atop it. As I prefer the point blank system I will likely either use a sabot and bullet or modern aerodynamic full bore bullet (like the Hornady FPB).
But being a member on a traditional forum I learned that I couldn't view the effectiveness on what I understood concerning modern projectiles. After seeing a ball would most likely give a complete passthrough out even beyond 125 yds and seeing numerous deer and elk pics convinced me to abandon my views and modern projectiles.
I had merely broken in my rifle with PRB with an arbitrary load of 70 grns of 3F powder, though I did try 50 and 100 just for fun. At 50 yds I've yet to find a great hunting load, though I've not tried various lubes or powder charges yet (I moved far away from an outdoor range). I had bought a handful of cast 320 grn Lee REALs to try out. After finding it necessary to use a felt wad my shots were nearly touching and right on. I bought a mold after that!
Where I am stalking isn't generally allowed as hunting lands have several guns with stationed blinds to use. Some of these places view fields and so I have in mind to obtain an additional barrel or another rifle specifically for shooting long range with a Malcolm style scope atop it. As I prefer the point blank system I will likely either use a sabot and bullet or modern aerodynamic full bore bullet (like the Hornady FPB).
I tried sabots when they first came out but they were abysmal. Now it's round ball all the way. Except for my Enfield which is minies. My last kill was with a .530 round ball and 90 grains of powder. I made a behind the ear head shot at 65 yards. I normally wont take a shot like that but it was all I was getting and I was confident I could make it.
Jbar4Ranch
New member
There's little argument they perform better, with the proper twist anyway, but I shoot muzzleloaders more for the historical aspect. Typically, muzzleloader/primitive seasons are in locations where shooting distances need to be limited, due to the proximity of human civilization, and sabot projectiles are prohibited. We don't have any dedicated primitive hunting season here, but rather "restricted weapon" areas specifying patched round balls or full caliber projectiles in muzzleloaders, shotguns, and/or handguns using conventional straight walled handgun cartridges - no single shot or revolving rifle cartridge handguns, such as TC Contenders or BFR's allowed.
Mass kills
In my deer-hunters, I prefer the sabots with a variety of conicals. I do so as I believe in the statement, that "mass kills" and I don't want to step up to a .54-PRB s when I can get equal of better performance with my .45 and .50. My Squirrel-hunter on the other hand, is always .36-PRB. ......
Be Safe !!!
In my deer-hunters, I prefer the sabots with a variety of conicals. I do so as I believe in the statement, that "mass kills" and I don't want to step up to a .54-PRB s when I can get equal of better performance with my .45 and .50. My Squirrel-hunter on the other hand, is always .36-PRB. ......
Be Safe !!!
deerslayer303
New member
Well from now on when I go hunting its a PRB. Not to say that its better than this or that its just what I prefer. I don't hunt anywhere really where I have a shot more than 100 yards, usually less than that. I enjoy getting in the deer's living room and getting as close to them as possible. And for that a patched ball will do what I need. (That is with a rifle with the proper twist rate for shooting PRB. My T/C Hawken hates them. I'm going to give it one more chance with Lee REAL's and Maxi Hunters, if it doesn't live up to my expectations, its outta here 
) And after taking my first deer with a ball yesterday, my eyes were opened how devastating a soft lead ball can be. In my game zone here in SC we don't have any special seasons we can use what we want. But I do travel to Spartanburg every year to hunt with my brother which they do have an Archery, then Primitive season. Not only that, for me its FAR cheaper to hunt with a PRB than all that inline stuff. Friday I watched my brother spend 18 bucks for 100 209 primers, 40 bucks for 100 50gr pellets, and 29 for 25 T/C sabots and conicals. For 87 bucks, I can shoot my sidelocks for a VERY long time. That's just my .02.
Happy Hunting, and I wish all success, no matter what is stuffed down the pipe!
) And after taking my first deer with a ball yesterday, my eyes were opened how devastating a soft lead ball can be. In my game zone here in SC we don't have any special seasons we can use what we want. But I do travel to Spartanburg every year to hunt with my brother which they do have an Archery, then Primitive season. Not only that, for me its FAR cheaper to hunt with a PRB than all that inline stuff. Friday I watched my brother spend 18 bucks for 100 209 primers, 40 bucks for 100 50gr pellets, and 29 for 25 T/C sabots and conicals. For 87 bucks, I can shoot my sidelocks for a VERY long time. That's just my .02.Happy Hunting, and I wish all success, no matter what is stuffed down the pipe!
FrontierGander
New member
If you can't find a hunting load with a patched ball, I'd suggest you stay home!
Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
I have given some thought to shooting sabo in my side lock. ~~~Ah~~
you know "it just ain't practical."
you know "it just ain't practical."
rodwhaincamo
New member
I have given some thought to shooting sabo in my side lock. ~~~Ah~~
you know "it just ain't practical."
Depends on the sidelock. Lyman has a few that are designed for them.
you know "it just ain't practical."
Depends on the sidelock. Lyman has a few that are designed for them.
Lets look at this realistically.
With a 50 cal or a 54 cal muzzleloader you can shoot 44-45 cal bullets up to about 300 grains. Velocity is typically around 1800 FPS for accuracy. You can go faster just as you can with patched round balls, but after a certain point (which is usually about 1800-1900 FPS) the accuracy is poor, so that is the range of velocity for usefulness.
Now a 54 cal rifle shooting balls fires balls of .530" or .535" which is about the same size as an expanded 45 cal pistol bullet. The bullets weigh a bit more, so if we look at this mathematically you can see that the bullets will have a small edge over the balls in both weight and in flatness of trajectory.
But when we step up to a 58 cal we get the ball up to 270 grains. Still a bit lighter than the heaviest 45 cal bullets used in sabots, but the velocity is the same, and the wound made by the 58 cal is now bigger if the ball is hard, and a lot bigger if the ball is softer.
When we go to a 62 cal or a 66 cal there is no longer a contest.
Now there is the issue of the would channel in the animal. If you look at the pictures of the perfect mushroom of the premium bullets and you cover the shank of the bullet with your finger what does it look like? Well,,, the front end looks like a ball.
So we take a 45 cal bullet and turn it into a 50 or 54 cal ball when it hits the animal. The only thing a bullet does better is fly. Not kill. But to about 100 yards it makes no difference on game. It's flatter, but not much flatter.
If you shoot them at 200 yards the bullets will often not expend totally and then the ball again had the advantage in killing the game, but may be harder to make the hit if your range estimation is off a bit. The ball is the size of the expanded pistol bullet at every range and it doesn't need to expand. So do. So that can make them even bigger in diameter.
You see guys, bullets in muzzleloaders are not a new thing. They were all the rage in experimentation from the 1830s to the 1870s too. The old timers knew that they had some advantages but were a mixed blessing. If you want to read "the Bible" on the subject, see if you can find the book "The Sporting Riles and it's Projectiles" by James Forsyth which was printed in 1863. He and his contemporaries killed more game in 10 years than most of us will have killed collectively in our lives and did it all the the most modern rifles available at the time,,,,,,,,which were all muzzleloaders.
They knew what worked and what didn't
As for me, I am into traditional muzzleloaders, and the modern in-lines and plastic stocked rifles hold no interest at all for me. I do not condemn them. I just don't find them interesting at all. But as the former CEO of Cast Performance Bullet Co, I know a bit about how well they work. We made bullets specifically for them and mated them to specific sabots for specific clients and customers. I did a LOT of testing of them back them. They work and work well.
But for me to say they work better on game animals out to about 150 yards then traditional muzzleloader is just not true.
A 50 cal with a hard ball shot at 1800 FPS is still just fine on deer, and even kills elk well. My friend Randy has killed 6 elk with his 50 cal, all with hard balls (cast from WW metal) and EVERY ball passed clear through leaving only a large hole behind it. No balls were recovered.
I have killed deer elk and antelope and a few domestic sheep, horses and cows with muzzleloaders running from 50 cal to 66 cal. Again, I use Wheel Weight lead for the balls and I have never had a problem. I also have recovered few balls.
I did recover one from a 1900 pound buffalo, and I also recovered some 54 cal balls from domestic cattle, but all fell to the shots and all were dead within a few seconds of the shot.
I am building 3 bullet rifles right now. All British style. All made for 45 cal RIFLE bullets (shooting bullets from 350 to 500 grains as you would use in a 45-70 to a 45-120 Sharps) At the same velocities as you can get from the breach loaders, these bullets will kill just as well, and the animal doesn't know or care what end of the gun the bullet was loaded from.
So I have knowledge of how well these things work, but for deer and elk I can't really see any real-world advantage from a saboted pistol bullet over a 54 (or bigger) round ball.
If you want to shoot 200 yards and farther with a muzzleloader pistol bullets are not the answer. Sure ---- they work, but they don't work any better at killing game then balls at that range, because they are smaller in diameter and often don't expend at the impact velocity of 1000 FPS or less.
54 cal balls often don't expand either but they are 54 cal, so they don't need to.
If you want to kill game at 200 yds and farther with a muzzleloader you should have a bullet rifle made to shoot rifle bullets.
I recommend 38, 40 or 45 calibers, depending on the game you want to kill.
Some states have regulations about bore size, so even though a 45 cal bullet rifle may have the same ballistics of a 45-120 sharps (good enough to kill bison at 500 yards) it may not be legal for 100 pound deer in your state, so check the regulations first.
With a 50 cal or a 54 cal muzzleloader you can shoot 44-45 cal bullets up to about 300 grains. Velocity is typically around 1800 FPS for accuracy. You can go faster just as you can with patched round balls, but after a certain point (which is usually about 1800-1900 FPS) the accuracy is poor, so that is the range of velocity for usefulness.
Now a 54 cal rifle shooting balls fires balls of .530" or .535" which is about the same size as an expanded 45 cal pistol bullet. The bullets weigh a bit more, so if we look at this mathematically you can see that the bullets will have a small edge over the balls in both weight and in flatness of trajectory.
But when we step up to a 58 cal we get the ball up to 270 grains. Still a bit lighter than the heaviest 45 cal bullets used in sabots, but the velocity is the same, and the wound made by the 58 cal is now bigger if the ball is hard, and a lot bigger if the ball is softer.
When we go to a 62 cal or a 66 cal there is no longer a contest.
Now there is the issue of the would channel in the animal. If you look at the pictures of the perfect mushroom of the premium bullets and you cover the shank of the bullet with your finger what does it look like? Well,,, the front end looks like a ball.
So we take a 45 cal bullet and turn it into a 50 or 54 cal ball when it hits the animal. The only thing a bullet does better is fly. Not kill. But to about 100 yards it makes no difference on game. It's flatter, but not much flatter.
If you shoot them at 200 yards the bullets will often not expend totally and then the ball again had the advantage in killing the game, but may be harder to make the hit if your range estimation is off a bit. The ball is the size of the expanded pistol bullet at every range and it doesn't need to expand. So do. So that can make them even bigger in diameter.
You see guys, bullets in muzzleloaders are not a new thing. They were all the rage in experimentation from the 1830s to the 1870s too. The old timers knew that they had some advantages but were a mixed blessing. If you want to read "the Bible" on the subject, see if you can find the book "The Sporting Riles and it's Projectiles" by James Forsyth which was printed in 1863. He and his contemporaries killed more game in 10 years than most of us will have killed collectively in our lives and did it all the the most modern rifles available at the time,,,,,,,,which were all muzzleloaders.
They knew what worked and what didn't
As for me, I am into traditional muzzleloaders, and the modern in-lines and plastic stocked rifles hold no interest at all for me. I do not condemn them. I just don't find them interesting at all. But as the former CEO of Cast Performance Bullet Co, I know a bit about how well they work. We made bullets specifically for them and mated them to specific sabots for specific clients and customers. I did a LOT of testing of them back them. They work and work well.
But for me to say they work better on game animals out to about 150 yards then traditional muzzleloader is just not true.
A 50 cal with a hard ball shot at 1800 FPS is still just fine on deer, and even kills elk well. My friend Randy has killed 6 elk with his 50 cal, all with hard balls (cast from WW metal) and EVERY ball passed clear through leaving only a large hole behind it. No balls were recovered.
I have killed deer elk and antelope and a few domestic sheep, horses and cows with muzzleloaders running from 50 cal to 66 cal. Again, I use Wheel Weight lead for the balls and I have never had a problem. I also have recovered few balls.
I did recover one from a 1900 pound buffalo, and I also recovered some 54 cal balls from domestic cattle, but all fell to the shots and all were dead within a few seconds of the shot.
I am building 3 bullet rifles right now. All British style. All made for 45 cal RIFLE bullets (shooting bullets from 350 to 500 grains as you would use in a 45-70 to a 45-120 Sharps) At the same velocities as you can get from the breach loaders, these bullets will kill just as well, and the animal doesn't know or care what end of the gun the bullet was loaded from.
So I have knowledge of how well these things work, but for deer and elk I can't really see any real-world advantage from a saboted pistol bullet over a 54 (or bigger) round ball.
If you want to shoot 200 yards and farther with a muzzleloader pistol bullets are not the answer. Sure ---- they work, but they don't work any better at killing game then balls at that range, because they are smaller in diameter and often don't expend at the impact velocity of 1000 FPS or less.
54 cal balls often don't expand either but they are 54 cal, so they don't need to.
If you want to kill game at 200 yds and farther with a muzzleloader you should have a bullet rifle made to shoot rifle bullets.
I recommend 38, 40 or 45 calibers, depending on the game you want to kill.
Some states have regulations about bore size, so even though a 45 cal bullet rifle may have the same ballistics of a 45-120 sharps (good enough to kill bison at 500 yards) it may not be legal for 100 pound deer in your state, so check the regulations first.
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DD4lifeusmc
New member
sabots
Never used one never will have no use for them.
Being modern and plastic they take the primitive out of primitive.
I don't care about the marketing hype that they may be faster may be more accurate.
I figure if YOU practice, really practice with your gun and get intimate with it,
you'll do just fine with it and your traditional black powder loads.
Same with scopes. Scopes were used on our rifles back in the 1800's. Want to use one? fine then use one that is period authentic.
Round balls and conicals were both available in the 1800's so I say ok on those also.
Never used one never will have no use for them.
Being modern and plastic they take the primitive out of primitive.
I don't care about the marketing hype that they may be faster may be more accurate.
I figure if YOU practice, really practice with your gun and get intimate with it,
you'll do just fine with it and your traditional black powder loads.
Same with scopes. Scopes were used on our rifles back in the 1800's. Want to use one? fine then use one that is period authentic.
Round balls and conicals were both available in the 1800's so I say ok on those also.
rodwhaincamo
New member
Lyman states their .50 cal has a max load for a ball being 110 grns 2F or 90 grns of 3F. For heavier bullets/conicals it states the max is 100 grns 2F or 80 grns of 3F. For their .54 cal and a ball it shows 120 grns of 2F and 100 grns of 3F.
A .490" ball weighs 177 grns and has a BC of 0.069, and a .530" ball weighs 224 grns and has a BC of 0.075. Hornady's 250 grn SST has a BC of 0.210 and their full bore 350 FPB has a BC of 0.285.
Using Triple 7 data we see that 100 grns of 2F, which is somewhat close to a 10% decrease of 3F, that the muzzle velocity is 1988 fps for the .50 cal. This is as close to max as I can get. For the .54 cal it shows 120 grns of 2F getting 1943 fps.
Using the 80 grns of 3F gives the lesser velocity compared to the 100 grn 2F loads. For the 250 grn SST it shows a velocity of 1748 fps and for the 350 grn FPB it shows 1589 fps.
What's more important is the trajectory and windage out to the said 200 yds. Using 50 yd intervals at 900 ft altitude and a 10 mph 90* crosswind and zeroed at 150 yds we get:
.490" ball - 21.8" drift at 150 yds, and 38.0" drift and -15.1" drop at 200 yds
.530" ball - 20.4" drift at 150 yds, and 35.5" drift and -14.5" drop at 200 yds
250 SST - 7.3" drift at 150 yds, and 13.4" drift and -8.8" drop at 200 yds
350 FPB - 5.8" drift at 150 yds, and 10.4" drift and -9.4" drop at 200 yds
This is why people choose a modern bullet or conical over a ball for long range.
I, too, don't care for inlines. But if I were hunting fields I'd certainly not choose a ball. The 320 grn Lee REAL has a BC of 0.189 and I'd certainly opt for that over a ball but I'd not go so far as to call it a good 200 yd bullet. There are no doubt some very good shooters who KNOW their gun and load and can do fair with a conical. I don't know if anyone who shoots a ball beyond 125 yds, with most limiting themselves to under 100 because of the trajectory and wind drift. But with a modern aerodynamic projectile one doesn't have to adjust much for a 200 yd shot (assuming a low power Malcolm style scope).
A .490" ball weighs 177 grns and has a BC of 0.069, and a .530" ball weighs 224 grns and has a BC of 0.075. Hornady's 250 grn SST has a BC of 0.210 and their full bore 350 FPB has a BC of 0.285.
Using Triple 7 data we see that 100 grns of 2F, which is somewhat close to a 10% decrease of 3F, that the muzzle velocity is 1988 fps for the .50 cal. This is as close to max as I can get. For the .54 cal it shows 120 grns of 2F getting 1943 fps.
Using the 80 grns of 3F gives the lesser velocity compared to the 100 grn 2F loads. For the 250 grn SST it shows a velocity of 1748 fps and for the 350 grn FPB it shows 1589 fps.
What's more important is the trajectory and windage out to the said 200 yds. Using 50 yd intervals at 900 ft altitude and a 10 mph 90* crosswind and zeroed at 150 yds we get:
.490" ball - 21.8" drift at 150 yds, and 38.0" drift and -15.1" drop at 200 yds
.530" ball - 20.4" drift at 150 yds, and 35.5" drift and -14.5" drop at 200 yds
250 SST - 7.3" drift at 150 yds, and 13.4" drift and -8.8" drop at 200 yds
350 FPB - 5.8" drift at 150 yds, and 10.4" drift and -9.4" drop at 200 yds
This is why people choose a modern bullet or conical over a ball for long range.
I, too, don't care for inlines. But if I were hunting fields I'd certainly not choose a ball. The 320 grn Lee REAL has a BC of 0.189 and I'd certainly opt for that over a ball but I'd not go so far as to call it a good 200 yd bullet. There are no doubt some very good shooters who KNOW their gun and load and can do fair with a conical. I don't know if anyone who shoots a ball beyond 125 yds, with most limiting themselves to under 100 because of the trajectory and wind drift. But with a modern aerodynamic projectile one doesn't have to adjust much for a 200 yd shot (assuming a low power Malcolm style scope).
Mini-Balls are very effective
I have been working on a .45-Mini ball shot-string and am really impressed with the performance. Very accurate at longer ranges and still effective. I'm shooting these out of a TC-SideLock as I don't own an MML in .45. I'm not in the habit of buying MML's but if I can find a .45 closed breech, I might be tempted. I also have a DNR buddy that took a 6X6 Elk shooting a .58 mimi-ball.
I wish that Lyman had not dropped many of their Mimi-ball molds. .....
Be Safe !!!
Gary,
I have been working on a .45-Mini ball shot-string and am really impressed with the performance. Very accurate at longer ranges and still effective. I'm shooting these out of a TC-SideLock as I don't own an MML in .45. I'm not in the habit of buying MML's but if I can find a .45 closed breech, I might be tempted. I also have a DNR buddy that took a 6X6 Elk shooting a .58 mimi-ball.
I wish that Lyman had not dropped many of their Mimi-ball molds. .....
Be Safe !!!
Cheapshooter
New member
After the "industry" ruined the "muzzle loader" season my state woke up. It's now called "alternative meathods" season. Allowing center fire handguns along with caseless arms (my words, "black powder" isn't used by very many)
So I use my T/C Contender with either a 35 Remington Super 14 barrel, or an older 14" 7-30 Waters barrel. Both scope mounted. With a Glock G20 sf as a back up for closer in shots.
When I did, and sometimes still do hunt with my T/C New Englander 50 caliber muzzle loader it is real FFG black powder, and a patched round ball.
So I use my T/C Contender with either a 35 Remington Super 14 barrel, or an older 14" 7-30 Waters barrel. Both scope mounted. With a Glock G20 sf as a back up for closer in shots.
When I did, and sometimes still do hunt with my T/C New Englander 50 caliber muzzle loader it is real FFG black powder, and a patched round ball.
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Cheapshooter
New member
Exactly! Firearms should be open sight, exposed ignition, either flint or cap, using loose powder, and either patched ball, or pure lead conical bullet.
rodwhaincamo
New member
So you'd no longer have an issue with a caplock shooter (or inline) using a saboted aerodynamic modern projectiles during regular season(s)?
g.willikers
New member
After attending that first muzzle loading shootin' match way back when, and seeing the incredible accuracy of what a well packed round ball load can do, I never looked for anything better.