Sniper rifle defined

R

riverdog

New member
At http://www.vpc.org/graphics/snipcov2.pdf the Violence Policy Center kindly answers the question we discussed in a previous thread at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=66212

So for those of you who thought the question was put to rest by all our rhetoric, it wasn't but is answered in detail by the VPC if you accept their logic. If I accepted their definition, my sniper rifle collection would increase by 1100%. Actually, more than that since I don't consider any of mine to be sniper rifles. Their definition increases that number to 11 though so ... go figure.

Anyway Art, there's the start to the same thread. Have fun.
 
I know most "sniper rifles" are converted either military or civilian models, but the Dragunov was specifically designed as a "sniper weapon." Are there any others that were solely designed as sniper weapons?
 
There are no "Sniper Rifles" only rifles belonging to snipers, making them "Sniper's Rifles". Along with Barrett .50's and M-40 wannabe's, the VPC includes M-1C/D's in its all encompassing definition, but IIRC the M-1C/D's were made from service rifles. Are all M-1 Garands to be pulled under the sniper rifle umbrella?

There is no difference between Remington "Sniper" 700's and Remington "Sporter" 700's from a receiver/sn standpoint, so how do you legally address and enforce the issue? You can't, the receivers are the same. Realistically, the only way to address this is to outlaw/control all bolt action rifles. I guess all those hunters who stood in the wings as assault rifles were defined and then banned will be pleased to hear they haven't been forgotten.

I'm just glad these idiots didn't go after the 50's as a separate class of rifle. By addressing all bolt-action hunting rifles at the same time they went after the 50's, they may have shot themselves in the foot. .308, 50BMG, what's the diff', they're both "sniper" rifles.
 
Those guys (VPC) are getting pretty irrational.

What do you think goes through the head of the person who wrote this? Do they know that they are deliberately misleading but doing so anyway? Or is it innocent subconscious use of imagination?
 
I'm kind of glad they're doing this though - they're bringing up the "modified/accurized" rifle as a sniper rifle.

Maybe this will suck more of the "they won't take my hunting gun" crowd.

A standard is feasible - I recall reading an element Russian gun control that somehow mandates some inaccuracy be built into rifles/they not be accurized - not sure how they achieve this. And I could be FOS.


Battler.
 
Subculture...

Just like there is a subculture in racing for the winners of the Datona 500. Few men (as in humans) are capable of the pure precision required to be a true Sniper.
Sniper school in the Army is one of the toughest courses you can take - If your lucky enough to even get the slot in the first place...

"True Military Weapon"... NO IT ISNT! Snipers started in WWI by SPORTSMEN who took thier hunting rifles to the trenches with them! Even the baddest sniper rifles are just badarse hunting rifles!
Yes - there are military snipers, and large caliber sniper rifles... but they are still basically sporting rifles with a sinister name.
 
Oh - I can't get off this article.

They mention 200 yard shots at deer as the max - and that anything that can hit well beyond that is sniper territory (goodbye 3006 and 308).

(There's A tirade on a Washington scenario that's probably printed to put some fool up to trying it - even though noone has).

"The destructive power of the 50 cal is difficult to overstate" bwahahaha.

They're all over the .338 Lapua too! Is there any > 30cal hunter out there who isn't worried yet?


"When firing a semiautomatic sniper rifle at a moving limousine, for example, even if the first round is deflected, it will likely punch open a hole for the next round" - what are these people smoking?


They then go into detail about their need to refrain from referring to anyone's deer rifle as a "sniper rifle" as, as they put it, Charlton Heston uses it to wake up hunters.


They go into detail about how the gun industry has switched terminology (surprise, surprise, you invent half of it yourselves and use it to great effect).

They mention how (I think it's true) a lot of the guns sold today go to people who collect them in quantity (or as they put it, 50 guns, the approx. number of guns an entire platoon would carry).

I should just shut up - PLEASE you gotta read this and PASS IT AROUND.

Battler.
 
wow - although it's interesting that they paint the ATF as being "pro gun" and hampering the efforts to make the world safe for all.

They talk about the .50 BMG - and list 3 instances where this was either used "or might have been". One was in Carribean heading to Cuba(is Cuba a state?), one was the IRA (is Ireland in the US now?), and the third was unconfirmed .50 shooting at Waco.

I really love the "spinning" of technically accurate statements, such as:
"When fired from a sniper rifle, even at long distances, armor piercing rifle rounds can punch through advanced body armor that is capable of stopping submachine guns rounds at close range"

This is completely true. But so is:
"When fired from any old rifle, at any distances, any old bullet can punch through body armor that is barely capable of stopping pistol ammunition at close range"

You know what? Stuff like this is turning the fence sitters. This is well written, it is well footnoted, and I'm having difficulty finding facts offered by the *authors* that are incorrect. There are *opinions* offered by third parties that the authors quote that I question, but if the sum total of my firearms knowledge had been garnered from movies and stupid-people-talk, I would not question this at all.

They've got us beat on the emotional buttons (why do these people want to be able to blow people's heads off from long range???).

I shouldn't even say "beat"... article like this are just driving in the nails. All the people I know who've grown up with guns are pro-gun. And many of those who have not grown up with guns (and thusly received most of their data from MEDIA... from TV and movies and magazines and all) are terribly scared of seing what happens in the movies happen in their front yard. People with no specific knowledge of a topic being swayed by any exposure they get.

Let's face it, we're not going to get many responsible gun owners spontaneously appearing out of the non-shooting media believing public. As long as movies pass for reality, and people are leaving the farms for the cities, we're in trouble.

Someone here with a writer's touch should redo this with the "spin" scrubbed off and offer it on a website. Hell, do that with all their articles. Show we're not into mind control, we just wanna cut the BS...

anyway, I'll stop rambling now... blood pressure's getting better....
 
quick mistake

One quick mistake is the harping about White Feather's 2,500 yard shot in Vietnam. VPC kept harping on ".50 rifle" and "sniper rifle", but he made the shot with a M2 MG. Lots of difference between a Ma Deuce and a sniper rifle...



Alex
 
There is no such thing as a category of firearms called “sniper rifles” Just as there is no such thing as an “assault weapon” only assault WITH a weapon. A true sniper rifle is a sniper, behind any given rifle. :)

In Liberty,

Chulain
 
Your SSG wasn't mentioned???......

Oh yes it was.......by caliber..........
So, now I know you feel better,and it was also one of those Non Sporting Imports.....so, see, cheer up.....you were included TWICE!!!!!!
 
Some parts of VPC's paper was actually well researched and written. However, it falls apart when it illustrates the "problem" associated with sniper rifles on the market.

For instance, the paper cites the Branch Davidians as having a 50 cal. rifle and its presence as one of the causes for the ATF raid. No violation of the law was cited in the report and the mere presence was justification for the raid. If I recall correctly, in obtaining court authorization for the raid, the ATF misled the judge in stating that an anti-tank rifle was present. The second example cited by VPC is the attempted smuggling of Barretts into Cuba; purportedly with intent to assassinate Castro. OK, assassination is generally not a good way to affect political change. However, the involved parties were not U.S. nationals. VPC seeks to limits the rights of American Citizens because of the conduct of foreign nationals. The final incident involved Barretts going to the IRA and one being used to kill a British soldier. Unfortunate. However, this is not a "national" problem with regards to the lives of your average American. Again, VPC is citing conduct by foreigners to create a "problem" for which unjust resolutions are proposed.

VPC also cites the sniper cult craze and the numerous civilian shooting schools. What VPC fails to realize is that the majority of schools cater to law enforcement. Most of us don't have the ducats to go to a private academy like SigArms, Blackwater Lodge, etc.

VPC then concludes with the same call for ban on importation, bans on ammunition, increased ATF regulation of large bore (.338 Lupua and 50 Cal for starters) guns, and most onerously, abusing the civil court system to shut down manufacturers. BTW, benchrest, target and varmint rifles easily fall into VPC's definition of "sniper" rifles.

Perhaps the funniest observation by VPC is the U.S. Gubmint's sale of sniper rifles to the civilian population. While the bolt action M1903A4 Springfields were not mentioned, the surplus M1C and M1Ds were. Why is this funny? Well, the vast majority of these guns were snatched up by collectors who will never shoot them. Second, anybody knowledgable in WW II firearms can tell you that the M1s were never really good sniper rifles. Great battle rifles, but they can't hold their own against a bolt gun. Read the latest issue of The Accurate Rifle where there is an article (if I recall correctly) entitled D is for Dog. The author, an officer in the Army Reserves during the '60s, equipped his unit with M1Ds for countersniping purposes. Despite all their work and efforts, they could never get the guns to shoot accurately. Finally, some guys suggested they stick with the iron sighted M-14.
 
If this isn't a wake up call...

Hey, this should be a wake up call to all of us. The anti-gunners are after all of our bolt rifles. You can kiss all of your benchrest guns goodby. And did you see the part about "armor piercing ammo"? If it is capable of penetrating bullet proof vests, it is armor piercing by their standards. That means every rifle bullet just about! Don't feed the fire.

Did anyone notice their statement that a 300 meter range is just sligtly less than two football fields. Could someone remind me how long a football field is? I thought it was 100 yards each. 2 football fields times 100 yards is only 200 yards, which is most surely less than 200 meters.
 
BTW, attacks are already on the way against the black powder crowd. The antis want both black powder handguns and rifles regulated. Imagine the hysteria when someone figures out the Minie ball in the average Civil War era rifle is accurate out to 500 yards? Gee, that's sniping too by VPC definition.
 
This is no attack on so called “sniper rifles”. It is an attempt to broad sweep ban nearly every rifle and type of ammunition in existence while pretending to surgically target only a “small supper deadly” category. Hype designed to alarm lawmakers who are not knowledgeable enough to discern that action against an “accurate” rifle will ban all rifles.
 
Such things tend to pass because the pro-gun people don't put up a principled defense.


Like with "non-sporting semiautomatic" rifles import ban. People use them for ipsc sports use; but these guns have "no sporting purpose" because they were "made to shoot people".

WOULD a sniper ban that did nothing but ban evil accurized sniper rifles be okay if you were assured it would not ban "good" rifles? This was done with the assault weapon ban, they specifically listed a bunch of weapons as protected and banned the rest.


Need to answer the real question: Is govt. allowed to ban a rifle based on it being very very good at precision shooting at people a long way away?


Battler
 
Sniper Weapons

"USMC",
Sniper motto....."One shot, one kill".

There's no REAL difference in the rifles "Purpose Built", as dedicated S Rigs....than an ADL from Wally World, unless it's after 2-3 shots.........

So , WHO do these bufoons think they are kidding??

Guy's, we been here, and done this dance before.......

We got our toes stomped at the last TWO dances, are we going to ALLOW the third dance to be the LAST..........?
 
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