Sneaky Concealed Carry

Banzai, how would you discover said firearm prior to conducting a search? If the individual refuses a search, you must then either have probable cause, or a warrant to conduct a search. Those are well established principles of criminal legal proceedure. Anything less is intimidation in an attempt to obtain consent. This intimidation doesn't end with lawenforcement either. I would suggest that any "convictions" that actually exist in such situations (no probable cause, no consent, & no warrant), are the result of plea bargains instead of jury trials. I will conceed that the rights of military personnel may differ from those of free citizens of the Republic.

For Federal Bureau of Prisons policy on the subject see: www.bop.gov/ , then click on FOIA/Policy, then "5000 Inmate and Custodial Management," then 5510.09 Searching and Detaining or Arresting Persons Other Than Inmates. Section 9 talks about the right of a non inmate to refuse a search unless their is reason to arrest or detain; based on probable cause of course, since the mere presence of an individual on federal property, or about to enter federal property, is not a legal reason to search them without their consent. If it were, it would apply to all federal property to include national forests and BLM lands. The only legal leverage that the government has over an individual on governmnet property is the same as that of any other property owner. That is the right to set the conditions in which a person may enter or remain on the property. If the person refuses to abide by the conditions, then the person may be removed, forcibly if necessary. This is not a police power however, it is a property right; a distinction that is often confused when the government owns property.

[This message has been edited by ellsworthtoohey (edited March 05, 2000).]
 
Is there a nearby golf club, swimming pool, gym or health club? Bus or train station?
You might find a locker available between the no-no place and your regular job or home.
Maybe a hollow tree stump along the road?
Get a mistress in the neighborhood?

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Teach a non-shooter to shoot. Educate a voter.
 
This may not be possible, but could you park off of this property leaving your CCW in the car where it would be legal, and walk or hitch a ride into the facility. Just a thought.

DaHaMac
 
I may be wrong, but once on a military base aren't you subject to the military code of conduct and as such no probable cause is necessary for a search? Any JAG folks out there?

[This message has been edited by Tecolote (edited March 04, 2000).]
 
Tecolote
The Code of Conduct is for Prisoners of War (POW).
It provides a very general set of rules for personal behavior or conduct while serving as a POW. Things like Chain of Command, lending aid to allies and enemies, etc.
I believe what you are refering to is the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).
It is, in an over simplification, military law that is applicable world-wide to military people.
Certain components of the UCMJ do apply to anyone on a military base. But generally, after the arrest/containment of a non-military violator, they are turned over to local law enforcement.

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Regards, Sharps.
 
Frontsight,
I don't know if you have thought of this, but if caught you would probably lose your CCW permit.
 
Definitely wouldn't try it now that you have asked security about it. The gestapo will probably search every time now.
 
Tecolote and Sharpsrifle,

The UCMJ does not apply to civilians on military installations in ConUS. If a civilian commits a criminal violation on a military reservation, jurisdiction resides in the Federal criminal court system, not the military "court martial" system. In fact, the only application of military courts to civilians is in rare overseas situations (such as the immediate Post-WWII period, when US troops -- and their families -- were "occupation forces" in Europe and the Far East).

Hope this information helps.
 
Tough situation! There are definitely places that you cannot go armed. Ask discreetly about disassembly of your firearm and placement into a lock box in the trunk, or leaving ammo in a box at guard house.

Note that as soon as they say no, you'd better not tempt the fates because you WILL get searched.

The only other alternative is to go w/o firearm on those days and carry a, hopefully, "legal" folding knife on your person, and a "big camping knife" along with a backpack, sleeping bag, etc. in the trunk.

You can keep the big knife (or camp axe) with you until you get to the nearest stop prior to the final stop. Get out for a cup of coffeee, and place the BST (Big Sharp Tool) in the trunk with your other outdoors gear. If you are attacked in your vehicl on the last leg, your best option (whether you had a firearm or not) is to use your vehicle as a weapon.

This is not so you can circumvent any rules or laws, but so that you have the ability to fight back on the way to your employment if you are targeted while in your car. You are in essence, improvising a common tool into a weapon of last resort.

Seriously, if you are that likely to face hostiles, I'll be glad to set you up with some armed protective agents to escort you to & from.

Make sure that you don't go out and get some "commando" knife complete with knuckle-duster and skulls, but a simple benign design. the Cold Steel master Hunter comes to mind.

I understand the need to go armed, but also know that the firearm is just one tool among many. Sometimes you can't have this so you rely on your imagination and resourcefulness.


Gabe Suarez
HALO Group http://www.thehalogroup.com
 
This might just work for you. If there is a local Police Dept. nearby stop in and talk with the Chief of Police and see if he will allow you to secure your weapon at the PD while you transact your business at the secure facility. You might just get lucky, a lot of cops are progun and be willing to help you. we have lock boxes at my PD for Officers going into the jail facility. This might just be the answer to your delima...7th

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SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL POLICE, KEEP THEM INDEPENDENT.
 
RWK

I think that is what I said...
"After detainment, one is turned over to the civil authorities."


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Regards, Sharps.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frontsight!:
Fellow posters, please help me with this. I leagally carry concealed almost all the time. About once a week, my job requires me to go to a facility with very high security. This establishment has a "no firarms past this point" sign, [/quote]

If this is a federal facility, you may be inviting the "Wrath of God" on you.
I would inform the guard as I entered. If your business is important enough, they can either hold your handgun (depending upon their regulations) or instruct you how to store it (probably locked in the trunk or glovebox).
In no way should you sneak a gun onboard the facility.



[This message has been edited by Ezeckial (edited March 05, 2000).]
 
Agree with 6forsure,
Now that you have raised the issue, they'll be looking for a weapon. I would not bringing a weapon to this facility from now on, just to be safe.
Cowboy
 
Ellsworthtoohey, I hate to disagree with the advice you have given Frontsight, and this certainly is not intended as a flame, but I don't think that telling him that the rules of probable cause apply in this case is the best advice to keep him out of trouble. Lets assume frontsight takes his gun to the facility (prison ect.) The guards try to do a random search. Frontsight politely advises the guard that they have no probable cause and no warrant. The guard, who has minimal legal training, probably removes front sight from his car... with a little help from his friends, and proceeds to search the car, finding the gun. Unfortunately, most guards I know would not listen to his probable cause arguements, and would instantly deem him a security threat for attempting to avoid the search. Frontsight might wind up in the local jail, still having no one listen to his probable cause argument.

The next day, assuming it is a prison, the facility contacts the local prosecutor's office and requests charges against frontsight. At this point, the prosecutor has not spoken with frontsight about his probable cause argument because he is probably in jail. So it is very possible charges would get filed. Now, poor frontsight must bond out of jail and hire an attorney. Assumeing frontsight has the money for an attorney, they could file a motion to supress the results of the search for lack of probable cause. I'm guessing most local trial judges are not going to buy that argument if the state argues that he consented to the search by entering the property past well marked signs, and it is very possible that the judge would deny the motion. Even if you are correct about the necesity of probable cause, Frontsight could well have to appeal the case before having getting his desired result, and even then it is iffy.
Bottom line, I agree he may have a good probable cause ARGUMENT, but in the real world, it certainly isn't worth the possible jail time and legal expenses to try and get someone to listen to your argument. So... I would say DON'T take your gun to the facility. Just my .02
 
Bob, that's pretty much how it works. Once you pass the signs and attempt entry, you have agreed to abide by what the signs state, wether it's federal property or not, wether it's just property owners rights, or federal/state/local law!. You'll loose any argument about probable cause and supressing search evidence, because you CONSENTED to said search by showing up at the gate. Ask the judge, or your lawyer, how that works!
And, as stated, if we'dd poop our pants to know what this facility is, then it's a sure bet that you'd spend plenty of time making big rocks into little rocks in the steel bar hotel!

Tom


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A "Miss" is the ultimate overpenetration!
You can never be too rich, too skinny, or too well armed!
 
Guys, I suggest you follow the link I provided. I've been dealing with this issue and the federal prison system for nearly eight years. Their published policy, which is based on Title 18 USC, is how it works in the real world.

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"I don't believe in individualism, Peter. I don't believe that any one man is any one thing which everybody else can't be. I believe that we are all equal and interchangeable."--Ellsworth Toohey
 
Hiyas, fellas. New guy to TFL here. I've been lurking for a couple of weeks, & it looks to me like you guys have a pretty good board here. Official intro post to follow. Anyhow... The rest is mainly for your benefit, Frontsight

As a security type myself, I can assure you that private security personnel are not bound by probable cause. That's strictly a LE thing. Security people, in most instances, have sworn no oath to uphold, defend, or protect anything, with the possible exception of their clients' or employer's property and/or safety. Often times, their only training will be from watching COPS. You know, that "Fourth Amendment violation" show. This, coupled with the fact that you've called their attention to the fact that you carry, can make for a potentially really bad scene. Leave the firearm off-site. That's my professional advice, unless you know one of the guards & he's sympathetic to your situation & will hold your piece for you. That may well be an option for you to explore. Whatever happens, good luck & stay safe!
Chris Farrer
 
Hi, eveyryone. I just moved and don't have my computer at home up yet, so here I am after the weekend. Interesting comments all around. Just to let you all know, I was very much anonomous when talking to the "chief" and have been on the area several times since I spoke to him (unarmed) and haven't seen any cars searched...including mine. I'll put it this way, Government (there, I said it) security is barely trained. On top of that, I can't think of a single real incident of any type that this place has ever had. The cops there have a very real "small-town brain dead day in-day out routine, except when something jumps out at them" persona. Scary, but real. The fact that I could probably go to the guard shack with a howitzer in tow and get through doesn't mean I'm going to do it. With my luck, the one day I have a Seecamp in my underwear (DEEP cover ;) ) they'll have a new guy there straight from school and he'll want to do a full cavity search. Then that day, all hell will break loose. Anyway, I guess I'll just give up.
 
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