Smokeless powder in an in-line muzzleloader
- Thread starter Mike Irwin
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Mike Irwin
Staff
Du Pont Bulk Powder was made, and available, into the 1950s to early 1960s, when it was finally phased out.
It was intended for use in shotshells and SOME rifles with modern steel barrels, NEVER in muzzleloaders.
Du Pont over the years also had a number of other bulk replacement powders, each of which was adapted to a different class of arm.
Schuetzen Smokeless was adapted for rounds like the .32-40 and .38-55 using lead bullets.
Empire was another intended primarily for shotshell use, but apparently wasn't popular and was phased out after a relatively short life.
Sporting Rifle 81 was adapted for loading black powder military cartridges up to, I THINK, jacketed small caliber rounds.
Other companies, like W&A, Laughlin & Rand, and later Hercules also made bulk replacement powders for a time.
I THINK that Laughlin & Rand may have been the only company to make a powder that suitable for use in iron-barreled muzzleloaders.
"Can't we consider Blackhorn 209 as a modern "bulk smokeless" powder?"
No.
It can't, to the best of my knowledge, be used as a bulk for bulk replacement for black powder.
Probably the closest thing we have today to a true bulk replacement powder is Trail Boss, but it does its work at relatively high pressures. So even it is not a candidate for use in some of the arms that a true bulk replacement smokeless would be used for.
"Neat stuff, which I felt should be considered "semi-smokeless"."
Semi-smokeless was always kind of a nebulous term that could be applied to black powder-type formulations using modified materials (Du Pont Brown, Prismatic, or Cocoa powder [all names for the same product, and used primarily as a military propellant for land artillery and naval use) or also for nitrocellulose formulas designed as bulk replacements.
Traditionally, PB was never considered to be a bulk replacement nor semi-smokeless.
It was intended for use in shotshells and SOME rifles with modern steel barrels, NEVER in muzzleloaders.
Du Pont over the years also had a number of other bulk replacement powders, each of which was adapted to a different class of arm.
Schuetzen Smokeless was adapted for rounds like the .32-40 and .38-55 using lead bullets.
Empire was another intended primarily for shotshell use, but apparently wasn't popular and was phased out after a relatively short life.
Sporting Rifle 81 was adapted for loading black powder military cartridges up to, I THINK, jacketed small caliber rounds.
Other companies, like W&A, Laughlin & Rand, and later Hercules also made bulk replacement powders for a time.
I THINK that Laughlin & Rand may have been the only company to make a powder that suitable for use in iron-barreled muzzleloaders.
"Can't we consider Blackhorn 209 as a modern "bulk smokeless" powder?"
No.
It can't, to the best of my knowledge, be used as a bulk for bulk replacement for black powder.
Probably the closest thing we have today to a true bulk replacement powder is Trail Boss, but it does its work at relatively high pressures. So even it is not a candidate for use in some of the arms that a true bulk replacement smokeless would be used for.
"Neat stuff, which I felt should be considered "semi-smokeless"."
Semi-smokeless was always kind of a nebulous term that could be applied to black powder-type formulations using modified materials (Du Pont Brown, Prismatic, or Cocoa powder [all names for the same product, and used primarily as a military propellant for land artillery and naval use) or also for nitrocellulose formulas designed as bulk replacements.
Traditionally, PB was never considered to be a bulk replacement nor semi-smokeless.
Look up their black powder metallic cartridge loading data. It seems to me that it comes fairly close to matching black powder velocities in those loadings. Many if not most of the loads are compressed, the way the black powder loads were.
The .45 Colt in particular, 255 grain bullet, 865 fps with a load that has a charge density of 103%. (slightly compressed)
Note, Blackhorn's metallic data lists loads by scale weight, not volume grains.
Mike Irwin
Staff
I'm only going on what I've read elsewhere about Blackhorn, but the key feature to a bulk replacement powder is that it is a 1 to 1 volumetric replacement for black powder.
In other words, if you had one of these critters for shotshell loading with black powder, you could use the exact same settings and get the same ballistic properties when using the proper bulk smokeless powder.
I've not heard anything to indicate that that is, in fact, the case with Blackhorn.
In other words, if you had one of these critters for shotshell loading with black powder, you could use the exact same settings and get the same ballistic properties when using the proper bulk smokeless powder.
I've not heard anything to indicate that that is, in fact, the case with Blackhorn.
Jim Watson
New member
I thought Blackhorn 209 was another in the series of modern fako powders meant to be loaded volume for volume to replace black with clean modern technology. I read that Blackhorn 209 is notably difficult to ignite, demanding the best of primers.
I never heard PB called a bulk powder. It is (Was, it is discontinued or soon to be discontinued, probably because it calls for different manufacturing methods for a small market item.) so named for its Porous Base for ignition and burn rate control. What you are getting is PB-6 although I don't know the significance of the -6. Perhaps that is the variety chosen for canister sales, like Red Dot No 30. Its Lee VMD is close to that for other shotshell powders.
I never heard PB called a bulk powder. It is (Was, it is discontinued or soon to be discontinued, probably because it calls for different manufacturing methods for a small market item.) so named for its Porous Base for ignition and burn rate control. What you are getting is PB-6 although I don't know the significance of the -6. Perhaps that is the variety chosen for canister sales, like Red Dot No 30. Its Lee VMD is close to that for other shotshell powders.
Mike Irwin
Staff
OK, I've just done a little reading on the Blackhorn site, and I'm a little confused...
"Typically, guns are rated for 150 grains of black powder or Pyrodex. Blackhorn 209 is more energetic and will achieve or exceed the velocities of Pyrodex with less powder. See our load data page for maximum volumetric charges."
That suggests that it is NOT a bulk replacement powder.
But....
"Volumetric Units are NOT the same as weight in grains. Blackhorn is used by volume and therefore the charge is a measurement by volume. A volume charge is measured with a standard black powder measure. It is not weighed and a setting of 100 does not mean that you have 100 grains by weight, not even black powder. The loading densities of all substitutes and grades of black powder are different. The same volume of any will yield different weights of powder."
That suggests, to some extent, that it is.
"Typically, guns are rated for 150 grains of black powder or Pyrodex. Blackhorn 209 is more energetic and will achieve or exceed the velocities of Pyrodex with less powder. See our load data page for maximum volumetric charges."
That suggests that it is NOT a bulk replacement powder.
But....
"Volumetric Units are NOT the same as weight in grains. Blackhorn is used by volume and therefore the charge is a measurement by volume. A volume charge is measured with a standard black powder measure. It is not weighed and a setting of 100 does not mean that you have 100 grains by weight, not even black powder. The loading densities of all substitutes and grades of black powder are different. The same volume of any will yield different weights of powder."
That suggests, to some extent, that it is.
Jim Watson
New member
What I get for Blackhorn is that it is a more energetic powder than real black or the other fakes adjusted to truly substitute for black (by volume).
Its requirement for a "hot" primer confines it to the inlines made of modern materials with sealed ignition systems, allowing it to be made stouter than most.
But it is still a volumetric powder.
Its requirement for a "hot" primer confines it to the inlines made of modern materials with sealed ignition systems, allowing it to be made stouter than most.
But it is still a volumetric powder.