smokeless in blackpowder gun?

G

george tarleton

New member
i am new to blackpowder cartridge reloading, though i do reload modern cartridges. i have a orginal winchester 1876 in 45-60. is it possible, safe, prudent (pick one) to reload 45-60 with smokeless powder if the chamber pressures do not exceed that of a blackpowder load. seems there would be a lot less mess and hassle with smokeless, i.e. lubes, black powder fouling up the works and such. i ran across a thread (which i can not find again) where some say no and others (who have done it) say ok IF the chamber pressures are the same for black powder loads.
i would really appreciate some opinions based on experience.
thanks- george
 
A. How would you test the pressures?

B. NO!!!!!!!!!!

But granted, that's not based on experience, so I may be wrong. But everything you ever read warns against it. I suppose though if you can somehow measure the pressure in YOUR gun, AND know that the pressures would be consistent, then.... But again, how would you go about measuring it and testing it? Just because X1 amount of X2 powder produces Y amount of pressure in Z smokeless cartridge chambering does NOT necessarily mean that X1 amount of X2 powder will produce that same pressure in a different muzzleloading chamber.
 
Don't even think about it. Odds of wrecking the gun and probably part of your face are just too great. You can, however, load the cartridge with real black powder. Use a drop tube and load it so the charge is compressed about 1/16" by the bullet. Never, ever underload and leave an airspace. Corn starch makes a good filler if you need to load less than a full charge. "The Complete Blackpowder Handbook" by Sam Fadala has a whole chapter on loading for black powder. So does "The Reloading Handbook" by Richard Lee.
 
I knew a couple of ancient brothers who had VERY CAREFULLY added a tiny bit of smokeless to their Black powder loads and it was working for them...

They had a hell of a lot of time on their hands and could afford to be VERY patient as they worked up the loads a wee grain at a time.

They could also afford to replace their muzzle loaders as needed... :D

I never found out if they were able to improve on terminal projectile performance... :rolleyes:

They did, however, succeed in diminishing the smoke cloud... :D

I still do not recommend this process because the pressure can accelerate so fast the barrel can bulge, or even blow up in your face... :(
 
The problem is not the absolute pressure but the pressure curve. BP develops maximum pressure over a different time period than does smokeless and the metals in the BP gun are designed to accept this.

Some BP cartridge guns can take smokeless, but you don't know which can unless you ask them. Unfortunately, the way they say "NO" is to come apart rapidly. In your hand. Close to your face.

Unless the manufacturer specifically states that you can use smokeless in that particular brand/model, don't do it.

Pops
 
And a newbie question...

What kind of powder is in the cartridge, when used with the Kirst Konverter ? Black powder ? smokeless ?

Thank you...................................................Gerald
 
From what I've read about the Konverter online, in catalogs and such, it's rated for cowboy loads. Meaning low-pressure smokeless, generally.

Note that with a revolver it's the cylinder that takes the pressure of the actual explosion. So if the cylinder is rated for smokeless, that should be OK, and the rest isn't stressed that much differently from with BP.

The black powder cylinders that come with cap and ball revolvers are NOT repeat bloody well NOT rated for smokeless. Even if the steel were strong enough-- and there's no guarauntee it is, if it wasn't designed to be-- the screw-in nipple construction cap-and-ball revolvers use wasn't rated for smokeless either.
 
On a related note, you can have guns that appear to be identical, but one will be OK with smokeless and one won't. The only way to tell which is which is to get the serial number and check it with the manufacturer, or gun-history books, etc.

The Colt SAA is the classic example of this. The early ones had the cylinder's base pin held in by an angled set screw. The rest have it held in by a spring-loaded crossbolt you can release by finger pressure alone.

The set-screw type are sometimes called "blackpowder" frames because they're only rated for black powder. The crossbolt type are sometimes incorrectly called smokeless powder frames, because most of them are rated for smokless. But not all are. The earliest-- what, thousand, couple thousand or so?-- were made before Colt finally OKd smokeless, so these early crossbolt frames aren't certified for smokeless either.

See, the problem in this case isn't the design. It's the strength of the steel they used. Either frame design would have been OK for smokeless if the steel they used had been up to the pressures. Neither is, if the steel's not strong enough.

To prove that point, if you look at some of the Colt SAA clones made today, you'll see they're available with the earlier "blackpowder" frame style; and yet, theyre rated as OK for standard smokeless loads.

Short version-- use what the manufacturer says to use! :D
 
Hi,

I was thinking of the BP revolver that I own, the Ruger Old Army.

I was wondering what kind of powder is in the Kirst Konverter cartridge.

Gerald........................................................................................../
 
Ruger Old Armies with the Kirst Konverter can fire "Cowboy" loads or equivelent smokeless but it is manufactured to handle the pressures. The 1876 Winchester was a blackpowder gun. Smokeless didn't come along untill 1894 in the Model 94 Winchester. Barrels of the 1886 Winchester were changed from the large diameter blackpowder barrels with soft steel to the round barrels made of the nickled steel for smokeless. The 1876 was never revamped for smokeless. I guess that means no smokeless in the 1876. It could probably fire the subs though like FFg 777 or Pinnacle or APP with bullets lubed with smokess lube but it may be a little difficult to find the most accurate loads. I'd research that though since the subs have a faster pressure curve. Personally I'd fire the 1876 gun with the real black and be safe instead of sorry. The modern repos of the 1876 can handle smokeless I guess. Right?
 
Wayne I think the same was true with the 1873 Colt SAA...early models were designated for BP carts only and later ones were marked for smokless powder.
Or something to that effect.
 
If you have an original 1876 winchester rifle, you shouldn't be shooting anything in it. It is 150 years old and is a collector. It my not be safe to shoot it at all. Corrosion or other weaknesses could lead to failure. Anyway, evry gun expert i have ever heard of says DON'T SHOOT SMOKELESS POWDER IN A BLACKPOWDER GUN. There are many and varied reasons for this, but the long and the short of it is that if you do this you are a test specimen. when they do the autopsy they will try to find all the pieces of metal that cased your death. And your widow will curse you for blowing up an antique weapon that coud be worth a lot of money. P.s. I never heard of .45/60, .45/70 (government) .45/90, .45/100,.45/110, but never heard of .45/60.
 
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That old rifle is for black powder loaded cartridges.
If it's in good condition it'll shoot good with original type ammo. I have a russian rifle that was made in 1897 and it shoots great.
You can find black powder cartridges on the net.
You can also find cowboy action loads for them too which are lighter loads.
NO SMOKELESS POWDER IN OLD FIREARMS!!!!!!!
 
People forget...

There are indeed blackpowder equivalent smokeless loads which do not exceed the pressure limitations of older firearms like the 1876 Winchesters.

If there's one thing I've learned in the reloading world, it's "never say never". If one understands the limitations of design and metallurgy found in vintage firearms, there's no reason one cannot get them running again and remain safe, even with modern smokeless propellants. Choose the proper powder, and stay within the pressure limits.

Accurate Arms XMP-5744 is one powder that comes to mind, and it's a great one for stuff like .45-70 Trapdoor loads, .32-40, .38-55, and a host of older low-pressure blackpowder chamberings. There are also powder-puff cast bullet loads using light charges of Unique or 2400, keeping the pressures down but still allowing the firearm to see use again. ;)
 
Mike Venturino has done articles featuring a real '76 Winchester blown up with smokeless loads. From Handloader Magazine no 241, June '06:
"As such (toggle link action) it is not an overly strong design. That fact along with the iron and steel Winchester used for rifle actions and barrels in the 1870s/1880s also means loading for original Model 1876s should be limited to black powder. One friend had to learn this the hard way. He insisted on loading for his fine condition Model 1876 .45-60 WCF with smokeless powder. Only when he blew the barrel clear off that $4000 rifle did he recognize the error of his ways. He thinks he double-charged a case. Regardless, that accident wouldn't have happened with black powder."

Well, duh. Darned few actions will stand a double charge. The only difference I see here is that his carelesness wrecked a nicer rifle than most.

But Venturino takes it as grounds to recommend that a '76 Winchester (or '73) should not be shot with smokeless powder at all.

There are repros that are made of stronger modern materials that will handle moderate smokeless loads with no problem.

As Jeff Cooper said: You will do as you think best.
 
Blackpowder ONLY in Blackpowder guns!!!

MacGille: The .45-60 was one of the chamberings available in the original ‘76, along with the .45-75 and .50-95. The Holy Grail of American firearms design in the 1870's was a reliable repeater chambered for the .45-70 Govt. cartridge, and a military contract to go with it. Unfortunately the ‘76 Winchester fell short of the mark, literally. The action was too short for the .45-70. They came up with the .45-75 to have an equivalent load and later introduced the .45-60, which is just a slightly shorter version of the .45-70 (the .45-75 is slightly bottlenecked to reduce its length enough to fit in the action while still holding the same powder charge as the Govt. cartridge). At the moment the .45-60 is gaining recognition as the most common chambering of the new ‘76 replicas being sold by Cimarron and others as brass for it can easily be made by simply shortening .45-70 brass while brass for the .45-75 (the most common chambering of the original) and .50-95 is difficult to obtain. Both are available from Buffalo Arms if anyone is interested. On a side note if you’re a western movie fan: the rifle Tom Selleck uses in “Crossfire Trail” is a Winchester ‘76 carbine in .45-60 WCF, “Winchester’s first big-bore lever gun.”

As for using BP equivalent smokeless powder loads in antique firearms designed ONLY for blackpowder, I can sum it up in one word: DON’T.

It isn’t only the max pressure that’s important; pressure curve matters too, and the pressure curves for smokeless powder and blackpowder are very different. An original ‘76 Winchester in good shootable condition is a rifle to treasure and it deserves to be fed the ammunition it was designed for. Unless you want to see your expensive rifle spontaneously disassemble itself only a few inches from your only set of eyeballs, don’t try smokeless in it. The best thing to do would be to buy a modern replica, which is designed for smokeless powder, for most of your shooting and shoot the original only rarely to preserve its value. If you just can’t handle real blackpowder you could try American Pioneer Powder. It’s a blackpowder substitute that burns almost as cleanly as smokeless but should be safe in any blackpowder firearm in good condition, although you might want to consult with someone such as Mike Venturino before trying it. I’m pretty sure he has a website, and he can be reached through GUNS Magazine.

The Winchester ‘73 was produced well into the 20th century and later models were approved for BP equivalent smokeless loads. If you have a ‘73 you should find out when it was made before using smokeless powder in it.
 
At the moment the .45-60 is gaining recognition as the most common chambering of the new ‘76 replicas being sold by Cimarron and others as brass for it can easily be made by simply shortening .45-70 brass
Click to expand...

I have read on the SASS Wire that the Chapparal '76 .45-60 will NOT run on shortened .45-70 brass. Turns out that real .45-60 has a thinner rim than .45-70; and the repros are, first, being made to Winchester specifications, and second, new and tight, so cannot be counted on to chamber a trimmed .45-70. Which had seldom been a problem with the few well-worn originals still in use.
I don't know about the Uberti version.
 
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