Smith & Wesson’s Downfall??
- Thread starter Nathan
- Start date
OK,I get your sentiment. the M+P name has a particular meaning to you.
But to S+W ,M+P is a line of firearms geared to Military and Police.
The S+W AR-15 type rifle is called an M+P by S+W today.
The guns they sell to LEO's and hope to sell to military are designated M+P.
Its about a product line.
Guns for today's Military and Police.And they have changed from the guns that represented the M+P of most of the 20th century.
MIM =Metal Injection Molding
This is an extension of the older Powder Metal technique which Remington was involved with in the '60s and '70s. Powdered metal is placed in a mold , compressed then sintered [heated to bond the particles ] .
With MIM the metal particles are mixed with a polymer , injection molded, then the mix is heated to remove the polymer [ like a wax ]. then at higher temperature is sintered . A number of variables but if everything is done properly it works fine . Gun companies obviously skipped the last sentence !!!
This is an extension of the older Powder Metal technique which Remington was involved with in the '60s and '70s. Powdered metal is placed in a mold , compressed then sintered [heated to bond the particles ] .
With MIM the metal particles are mixed with a polymer , injection molded, then the mix is heated to remove the polymer [ like a wax ]. then at higher temperature is sintered . A number of variables but if everything is done properly it works fine . Gun companies obviously skipped the last sentence !!!
On MIM parts:
At least for the degree they are used today,its a relatively new technology...sort of.Ball bearings and gears have been "sintered" for a long time.
The process has been adapted to injection molding.
For nearly all manufacturing technologies there is a learning curve.The designers accustomed to traditional manufacturing process have found trouble creating clones of forged/machined parts in MIM parts.It does not necessarily work.For example,molded parts require uniform wall sections. A very heavy wall section (like a traditional hammer) creates problems.
The parts adapted to MIM may not have the real estate for a traditional DA Revolver design.
The plan of starting with a clean sheet of paper and creating a new design to capitalize on modern manufacturing methods is a good one.
Stoner did that.Glock did that. So did Eli Whitney.And Bill Ruger.
By whatever forming technology,powdered metal parts are not inherently inferior gun parts. They just have different characteristics. That may frustrate a pistolsmith. Fair enough.
Consider a chef knife edge.It requires certain characteristics.
These days,the chef knife "super steels" include powdered metal, R-2 and SG-2 among them.
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/sg2steel.html
At least for the degree they are used today,its a relatively new technology...sort of.Ball bearings and gears have been "sintered" for a long time.
The process has been adapted to injection molding.
For nearly all manufacturing technologies there is a learning curve.The designers accustomed to traditional manufacturing process have found trouble creating clones of forged/machined parts in MIM parts.It does not necessarily work.For example,molded parts require uniform wall sections. A very heavy wall section (like a traditional hammer) creates problems.
The parts adapted to MIM may not have the real estate for a traditional DA Revolver design.
The plan of starting with a clean sheet of paper and creating a new design to capitalize on modern manufacturing methods is a good one.
Stoner did that.Glock did that. So did Eli Whitney.And Bill Ruger.
By whatever forming technology,powdered metal parts are not inherently inferior gun parts. They just have different characteristics. That may frustrate a pistolsmith. Fair enough.
Consider a chef knife edge.It requires certain characteristics.
These days,the chef knife "super steels" include powdered metal, R-2 and SG-2 among them.
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/sg2steel.html
Some folks were let go by S&W and they just slid over to Ruger. That's why you are seeing Ruger double action revolvers coming out of the factory set up for moon clips and in 10 mm and 9 mm configurations as well as the standard 38/357 calibers. They were also the primary sponsor for the 2017 IRC held at Universal Shooting Academy in Frostproof FL. supplied and gave away 4 handguns at the match
Aguila Blanca
Staff
You are aware, I hope, that MIM (Metal Injection Molding) and investment casting are two totally different processes, right? Investment casting is used for larger parts, such as slides and receivers. MIM is used ror small parts, such as hammers, triggers, sears, etc. Mentioning investment casting as a follow-up to a comment about MIM is very much a non-sequitur.T. O'Heir said:
I think I agree with this, even though I think you called me a name!
BTW, it's not perceived....you have to lower part stress and toughness levels by design to apply MIM parts because MIM's structure on a micro level is it's weakness. A slurry of plastic and metal flow into a mold. Oversized parts come out, they shrink as plastic binder comes out and are very hard. They are made to size and have little to no fitting or final machining. What do you think they look like under a microscope? Swiss cheese?
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Let this metallurgist try to explain things !
It all started with Powder Metal [PM] where metal powder is compressed in a mold , then sintered [ heated ]to bond the powder. A fairly old process .BTW Remington made guns AND powder metal parts for years .These parts were for many applications .During Viet Nam we made helicopter bearing retainers that held a bit of oil so that a helicopter could safely land if oil lines were shot out !
The next step was MIM [metal-injection -molded ] using a slurry of metal powder ,molded ,heated to drive off the polymer, then sintered to bond the particles.
Somewhere the bean counters found they could use it for every gun part .But they were thinking only 'bottom line' not proper gun engineering !
Being retired some info sources are not available but I did learn that FORD is using it make a truck engine part that needs the highest performance ! [yes I do drive an F-150].
So the problem was inappropriate application and poor quality !
It all started with Powder Metal [PM] where metal powder is compressed in a mold , then sintered [ heated ]to bond the powder. A fairly old process .BTW Remington made guns AND powder metal parts for years .These parts were for many applications .During Viet Nam we made helicopter bearing retainers that held a bit of oil so that a helicopter could safely land if oil lines were shot out !
The next step was MIM [metal-injection -molded ] using a slurry of metal powder ,molded ,heated to drive off the polymer, then sintered to bond the particles.
Somewhere the bean counters found they could use it for every gun part .But they were thinking only 'bottom line' not proper gun engineering !
Being retired some info sources are not available but I did learn that FORD is using it make a truck engine part that needs the highest performance ! [yes I do drive an F-150].
So the problem was inappropriate application and poor quality !