Smith wesson 27 finishing issue?

Hi, Jeremy,

I am beginning to think the frame is bent. That kept the cylinder from closing properly, so the "gunsmith" filed down the end of the center pin so it would lock after a fashion.

I don't know how big a town you live in but in most areas the gun community is fairly small and most dealers can't afford to antagonize customers. A restocking fee is appropriate when a customer simply decides he didn't like what he bought. The fee makes up for the pain in the fanny the dealer has to go through.

But when the item is not right and was sold under false pretenses, that is not a customer changing his mind, that is fraud on the part of the dealer. If you know a stray lawyer who would be willing to write a letter about the possible consequences of fraud, it might help enormously.

Jim
 
There should be no restocking fee because the gun is not new, as was claimed by the seller. If you paid via credit card, contact the card's customer service dept asap and have them do a charge back. The seller should reimburse you for all shipping charges and FFL fees as well.
 
If the seller is a real AH and sticks to his story, he will simply continue to claim the gun is new, as stated, and tell the buyer to stick it and "sue me". Since even filing a lawsuit would cost many times the value of the gun (something the crooks rely on) the buyer may be stuck. S&W might rehab the gun, but if they do so, it would be purely out of good will, since I very much doubt (see above) that they had no part in the damage to the gun. In similar cases, they have agreed to sell the person a new gun at a discount; IMHO, that might be a good solution.

It is also very unlikely that the seller will be willing to take anyone's word that the gun was damaged and he can probably rally a bunch of friends who will claim to be experts and confirm his version of the story.

In short, Jeremy may be stuck. Too bad, but a lesson in knowing what you are buying. BTW, before anyone chimes in with an old saw, BATFE does NOT enforce fraud laws or mediate disputes between seller and buyer, so it would be a waste of time to try to involve them.

Jim
 
Are S&W serial numbers still marked on the cylinder face?

If so, does that serial number match the frame serial number?

A little bit of time with a straight edge and you should be able to figure out if the frame is actually bent.
 
Depending what comes from S&W. My next step would be PA State Attorney General, then the local ATF office, and even the PA State police and explain to the ATF the dealer is up to shady business practices possibly passing used guns for new. The ATF are the ones that can find out from S&W which distributor received the gun, then in turn which dealer received the gun. That in itself will answer the question as to new or used.
Just how I would proceed being out of state.
Not being a lawyer, just maybe a federal crime being gun was sent across state lines and possible fraud involved
 
I think the more prudent thing to do is just call your credit card company and cancel the sale there and call the gun shop and inform them of your decision. If you tell them the gun was misrepresented and you are sending it back, there is really nothing they can do at that point. You will end up eating the shipping, but the situation will get resolved without trying to involve the legal processes.
 
The guy wants you to pay a 10% restocking fee to return firearms.
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From the details given that it was reworked by a "supposed Gunsmith" it should still be the responsibility of the seller to settle up with S&W if they claim it was NIB.

Either way I would demand they fix it or send it back themselves for selling you a gun that they gave no visible inspection to or tried to pass off as new.

Your Point is that you did not get a new gun in new finish and working proper working order. If they refuse, you can always take it to small claims.
 
I should think that Smith & Wesson might be interested in a gun shop (of ANY size) that attempts to sell their product as "NEW" if there's a solid chance that is it -far- from new and actually, willfully buggered to some nonsensical state.

There's a chance that Smith & Wesson is too large in size/busy/successful) to be bothered with a small shop that is doing such a thing, but in a more perfect world, they'd be incensed. That revolver is their reputation.
 
This is the joys and horrors of ordering a gun (online or otherwise). On the plus side, you get to find a gun you couldn't find locally. On the minus side, when things go bad, its tougher to deal with.

If they sold the gun "as is" they its all on you. They sold it as NIB, then you have certain expectations, and so should they.

REPUTABLE sellers usually give you an inspection period. 3 days (from receipt) is common. Personally, if they don't even offer an inspection period, I would buy from someone who does!

How much time has passed since you got the gun? Did you send pics to the shop so they could see the condition?

At this point, the shop that sold it is the main suspect, BUT, they may not be completely responsible. It is possible (remote, but possible) that the shop received the gun in that condition, and never noticed it.

Open box, glance at the gun, verify serial #, put it in stock. Same thing when sold. No reason to closely inspect the finish (or the function), after all, the gun was "new".

ALL we know for certain is that while the gun might meet the technical definition of new (unfired, never before sold at retail) that gun is NOT in "new" condition. Somebody, somewhere, worked on it for some reason, and did a less than flawless job.

Only 4 possibilities, I see;
1) the gun left S&W in that condition (possible, when pigs fly, TV commercials don't count;))

2) You did the damage, and shoddy repair, and are looking to scam someone (I take leave to doubt that, only mention it as a possibility)

3) Damage & repair happened at the wholesaler's level, and the retail shop didn't know, and never learned (possible, not highly likely, but possible), and sold you the gun in good faith that it was NIB.

4) Damage and repair happened at the retailer's, and the gun was passed off as NIB. (seems most likely, at this point) 4a) possible that the retail shop owner(s) did not know this happened. It might have been someone in their shop was responsible for the condition of the gun, and never told the owners.

There is little point in involving the ATF, as noted, they care little unless it is a firearms law violation, (which this does not seem to be).

Even if you get a satisfactory result from the dealer, I think S&W ought to know what happened. They might have gotten other complaints about the dealer/jobber...

If the seller basically says "eat it", I would definitely get S&W involved. I would send them the gun for evaluation, and request a full comprehensive evaluation and letter from them with their findings. And I would pay what that cost, from my own pocket, if I had to. A letter from the maker, stating the exact condition of the gun as sold to you, vs the condition it left the factory can go a long way in any claim you could bring against the retailer.

Its not right, but at that point, to me, the principle is more important than a little bit of cash. (and no, I'm not wealthy, currently retired and living on 1/2 of what I made when working)

The firearms industry is full of honest, ethical people. However, there are some who are as sleazy as the stereotypical used car salesman. When we find these, they need to be publicly exposed for who they are, and what they are doing.
 
3) Damage & repair happened at the wholesaler's level, and the retail shop didn't know, and never learned (possible, not highly likely, but possible), and sold you the gun in good faith that it was NIB.
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Of the possibilities you listed, I would submit that this one is the furthest from likely. Seems to me that true firearm wholesalers are running a mind-numbing level of volume and business and doing something of this nature on one isolated unit, to put themselves at risk of being pulled as a distributor of one of the premier names in the whole of the industry is just absolutely ludicrous. :eek:

Although if it was perhaps one single idiotic moron inside the operation that went rogue while not concerning himself with the reputation of the wholesaler he works for, I could see that being somewhat more possible.

Of course, if we look at that sentence directly above, with regard to ONE single guy who chose to go this route for whatever wild reason (to cover his own failure somewhere), it really could be any of the options. It could be one really awful employee at S&W, at the distributor or at the shop that sold it. That would certainly be plausible... and in fact, IMO, seems to be the most likely scenario.
 
I think it's not a coincidence that the majority of guns with finish problems, or canted barrels, seem to end up in the hands of folk that couldn't find them anywhere else but from a dealer online. Makes one wonder if these sellers, because of those problems, either have a hard time selling the gun over the counter FTF, or if it has been returned or refused by other online buyers, and they are hoping that sooner or later someone that has already accepted the gun from their FFL, won't return it. Especially if they are given a hard time and told there will be a restocking fee.
 
I think its possible it could have been a display model but I think that it is more likely that smith messed up. I have contacted the seller and is awaiting his response. I may have be expecting too much from a production gun. (Some would be surprised how much a knife runs for that is truly of high quality.) Though I would expect the firearm to be free of stray scratches at this price point.

How does one go about determining if the frame is bent?
 
Determining if a frame is bent can be as simple as looking or using a straight edge, or as complex as using very expensive gauges.

I hate to say this, but I think your remark about "expecting too much" shows you are still in denial. There is no way that gun came out of the factory that way. It would be like finding a Cadillac on the showroom floor with a crumpled front end and a twisted frame and being told that it came from the factory that way!

I have no idea how the damage occurred, or who tried to fix it, but if you can't get a full refund, try the PA AG route. (BATFE will not (cannot) help you; they don't enforce the fraud laws or resolve quality disputes.)

If they ask you to return it, make sure you take good clear pictures of the whole gun and the damaged areas, in case they claim there was no damage. They may even claim that you are responsible for the damage, but deal with that if it happens.

I have to note that the problem of buying anything "on the net" is that it is nearly impossible to get a refund if the seller simply stiffs you. It would cost thousands even to initiate a suit and you are at a disadvantage unless you can appear in person to testify.

Please let us know the outcome. We may have some TFL folks in that area who can help.

Jim
 
Good luck. I would also let him know that you will do everything you can to hurts his reputation (message boards, BBB, online review sites , ect.).

You come across as a nice guy and it seems like you do not want to rock the boat, but IMHO this calls for you to put your foot down. The guy sold you an obviously defective gun. Lets say for the sale of argument it did come from s&w like that (it didn't) he should have sent it back instead of passing it on the the customer.

There is no way around it, this guy took you and you should do what you can to get ALL your $ back, and maybe making this guy think twice about doing this again
 
Alright I got an email from smith & wesson with a prepaid shipping label. I have not received a response from the seller. Should I ship it to smith for them to look at or per sue a refund from the seller? I guess a chargeback is always an option if they wont respond? I really appreciate y'alls advise. Thanks
 
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