Simulating "stressful" conditions where you will need to use your pistol for defense?
- Thread starter MyGunsJammed
- Start date
The square range is where you learn shooting. Shooting is important.
The square range isn't where you learn fighting. Fighting is important.
The two shouldn't be confused, though there should be overlap.
As to how to incorporate the two, if you find yourself suited up in gear allowing for the safe delivery of blows, throws, and marking rounds to invovled participants then you are on the right path, assuming a decent trainer and training group.
If you're not... Well, some training is better than none.
The square range isn't where you learn fighting. Fighting is important.
The two shouldn't be confused, though there should be overlap.
As to how to incorporate the two, if you find yourself suited up in gear allowing for the safe delivery of blows, throws, and marking rounds to invovled participants then you are on the right path, assuming a decent trainer and training group.
If you're not... Well, some training is better than none.
Maybe I´m missing something, but... if they doesn´t know when or where are going to be attacked, how do they know wich gun/ammo are they gonna use to defend themselves? The possibility of a REAL home invasion it´s always there (that´s the reason of the all thing, right?)
Just in case I would use a real gun, with real bullets. Aby BG would be happy to hear me say: "I thought you were Larry" seconds before dying because of the blanks on my revolver.
It´s the craziest thing ever.
Deaf Smith
New member
You have to train in steps.
Square range first. Learn the basics. Learn them well. If you mess up here it will take alot longer to get it right later. Learn to shoot with either hand. Shoot in low light. Build your skills at weapon manipulation and use of sights (and lack of them at times.)
Dynamic range. Lean to move and shoot. Learn to shoot moving targets. Here things start getting fluid and you start putting the basics together.
Competiton. This allows you to do all the above while others watch. And presuming you want to win then you will TRY HARD and thus stress. This includes not only firearms competition but also martial arts. It's bad point is you can also try to win by gaming. But even then, you learn alot about putting it all together at speed. You also learn to inprovise and adapt, which is hugely important.
FOF. If it's well done and realistic with actors to say the right things then you will learn alot. Here you won't game and there are no trophies. But FOF courses are few and far between (as well as expensive) while competition is usually monthly.
Even after all that, it still is not a perfect match to the real thing. But then, the only training for combat is combat. If you really want that, join the army!
Square range first. Learn the basics. Learn them well. If you mess up here it will take alot longer to get it right later. Learn to shoot with either hand. Shoot in low light. Build your skills at weapon manipulation and use of sights (and lack of them at times.)
Dynamic range. Lean to move and shoot. Learn to shoot moving targets. Here things start getting fluid and you start putting the basics together.
Competiton. This allows you to do all the above while others watch. And presuming you want to win then you will TRY HARD and thus stress. This includes not only firearms competition but also martial arts. It's bad point is you can also try to win by gaming. But even then, you learn alot about putting it all together at speed. You also learn to inprovise and adapt, which is hugely important.
FOF. If it's well done and realistic with actors to say the right things then you will learn alot. Here you won't game and there are no trophies. But FOF courses are few and far between (as well as expensive) while competition is usually monthly.
Even after all that, it still is not a perfect match to the real thing. But then, the only training for combat is combat. If you really want that, join the army!
While it has already been said, . . . the concept of "You will do in the real world, what you learned in the training world" cannot be overstated.
As an example, . . . aboard my first ship, in my first attempt, I timed out at something like 7 or 8 minutes stripping down an electrical transmission board so it was ready to be fed by an emergency generator that was 20% the size of the regular generator.
After some practice, I got it down to less than 15 seconds. A shipmate of mine never did get it right, . . . he of course was the one on watch when it was needed, . . . and our 393 foot long, US Navy ship went literally dead stick in the middle of the South China Sea, . . . with the commodore aboard, with a brand new skipper, as we led the squadron out of Subic Bay.
Moral? Understanding? You need to train as realistically as possible for that which may come upon you. As a 63 year old who recently had open heart surgery, . . . I do not train in close quarter fisticuff training. I do practice visualization techniques of scenarios where I could very well become involved.
Visualization and justification (justify each step by questioning it to see if it was the best step, . . . a step done correctly, . . . were there other options?) and work slowly through it.
As an example, . . . holster up your carry weapon after you have determined three separate time it is UNLOADED. Go out in your garage, . . . and walk through a scenario where you start the car, open the garage door, and you see a bg come running in and try to get into the kitchen while carrying a large butcher knife.
Is your kitchen door locked? It should be!
Are your car doors locked? They should be!
Can you get on your cell and call 911? Your cell should be in an outside pocket and quickly accessible without taking your eyes off the perp!
He picks a 4 pound hammer off your work bench and seeing movement in the car, . . . comes to the driver's door and starts on the window. Is your seat belt off by now? It should have been when you first saw him!
Can you access your weapon from the driver's seat? You should be able to!
This goes on until you have exhausted all possible ways this could go. By very closely questioning each move, . . . you will develop a different and much better plan than just trying to wing it every time. The plan can also be used for different scenarios.
Visualization and justification are training techniques the military has used since George Himself held the pre-raid briefing before crossing the Delaware over 200 years ago, . . . and they still work. There is better training, . . . but if it is all you got, . . . make the most of it.
May God bless,
Dwight
As an example, . . . aboard my first ship, in my first attempt, I timed out at something like 7 or 8 minutes stripping down an electrical transmission board so it was ready to be fed by an emergency generator that was 20% the size of the regular generator.
After some practice, I got it down to less than 15 seconds. A shipmate of mine never did get it right, . . . he of course was the one on watch when it was needed, . . . and our 393 foot long, US Navy ship went literally dead stick in the middle of the South China Sea, . . . with the commodore aboard, with a brand new skipper, as we led the squadron out of Subic Bay.
Moral? Understanding? You need to train as realistically as possible for that which may come upon you. As a 63 year old who recently had open heart surgery, . . . I do not train in close quarter fisticuff training. I do practice visualization techniques of scenarios where I could very well become involved.
Visualization and justification (justify each step by questioning it to see if it was the best step, . . . a step done correctly, . . . were there other options?) and work slowly through it.
As an example, . . . holster up your carry weapon after you have determined three separate time it is UNLOADED. Go out in your garage, . . . and walk through a scenario where you start the car, open the garage door, and you see a bg come running in and try to get into the kitchen while carrying a large butcher knife.
Is your kitchen door locked? It should be!
Are your car doors locked? They should be!
Can you get on your cell and call 911? Your cell should be in an outside pocket and quickly accessible without taking your eyes off the perp!
He picks a 4 pound hammer off your work bench and seeing movement in the car, . . . comes to the driver's door and starts on the window. Is your seat belt off by now? It should have been when you first saw him!
Can you access your weapon from the driver's seat? You should be able to!
This goes on until you have exhausted all possible ways this could go. By very closely questioning each move, . . . you will develop a different and much better plan than just trying to wing it every time. The plan can also be used for different scenarios.
Visualization and justification are training techniques the military has used since George Himself held the pre-raid briefing before crossing the Delaware over 200 years ago, . . . and they still work. There is better training, . . . but if it is all you got, . . . make the most of it.
May God bless,
Dwight
old school speed ball
This has been an interesting thread. Several people have mentioned paint ball and just wanted to pip in and say it can provide an introduction to some intense situations. It has been several years since I played along with my son (a dad and son bonding thing) however I wnated to mention the old school players.
There is a movement amongst the paint ballers for old school which means single shots, C02 cartridges rifel and pistols vs automatic gun play. (for those who do not know you can get full auto guns with firing rates in the 20 balls per second range, it looks like a rope of paint coming at you.) The old school play is close in, single shots with lots of rushing depending of you are playing one on one or teams. Often this senarios will be combinations of woods or in building depending on your course.
Just to see how you do on a larger scale try something like the a big game in your area. We use to have one here in Mich at Pickney, people from all over the US and world would come to play this non-stop game which would have 3thousand plus people on 85 acres. You will find out pretty quick how you react with 200 people charging your position or what happens when you round a building and are faced with several opponents who are surprised to see you pop around. Like anything, you get out of this what you seek and are willing to put yourself into.
Oh....if you guys are going to use paintballs be sure you go to a good course (they will be darn strict with gun handing rules, barrel plugs, mask behavior and crongraph guns on a regular basis) The first few times I was amazed at the excellent gun handling behavior of many of the kids. If you are going to make up your own game (we call this rouge games) be sure someone has a cronograph and keep your rounds under 300 fps (most guns are most acurate around 275 or so and getting hit with 400 tears skin, I know from experience. Please wear a mask or approved googles. Paintballs taste like **** but can do eye damage so a full face mask is all the better. The mask also introduces stress as it limits some of your visual imput from sides. You really have to develop the habit of moving your head to see the field of the game.
This has been an interesting thread. Several people have mentioned paint ball and just wanted to pip in and say it can provide an introduction to some intense situations. It has been several years since I played along with my son (a dad and son bonding thing) however I wnated to mention the old school players.
There is a movement amongst the paint ballers for old school which means single shots, C02 cartridges rifel and pistols vs automatic gun play. (for those who do not know you can get full auto guns with firing rates in the 20 balls per second range, it looks like a rope of paint coming at you.) The old school play is close in, single shots with lots of rushing depending of you are playing one on one or teams. Often this senarios will be combinations of woods or in building depending on your course.
Just to see how you do on a larger scale try something like the a big game in your area. We use to have one here in Mich at Pickney, people from all over the US and world would come to play this non-stop game which would have 3thousand plus people on 85 acres. You will find out pretty quick how you react with 200 people charging your position or what happens when you round a building and are faced with several opponents who are surprised to see you pop around. Like anything, you get out of this what you seek and are willing to put yourself into.
Oh....if you guys are going to use paintballs be sure you go to a good course (they will be darn strict with gun handing rules, barrel plugs, mask behavior and crongraph guns on a regular basis) The first few times I was amazed at the excellent gun handling behavior of many of the kids. If you are going to make up your own game (we call this rouge games) be sure someone has a cronograph and keep your rounds under 300 fps (most guns are most acurate around 275 or so and getting hit with 400 tears skin, I know from experience. Please wear a mask or approved googles. Paintballs taste like **** but can do eye damage so a full face mask is all the better. The mask also introduces stress as it limits some of your visual imput from sides. You really have to develop the habit of moving your head to see the field of the game.
sw_florida
Moderator
If you feel that stress will interfere with your thinking process, work towards lowering your stress level, generally speaking. I think stress comes from not trusting your gusts, so you run the same thoughts through, over and over. It's not the lack of time that is the problem in "stressful situations", it's how inadequately you spend the time you have at hand. Be friends with your own attitude on scumbags.
Shane Tuttle
Staff
http://www.cumberlandtactics.com/schedule.htm
Randy Cain's course on Tactical Handgun 101 will be right up your alley. My wife and I took it last year. It's anything but 101. Don't get me wrong. A person that hardly knows how to load one's gun to a LE officer with 15 years experience can attend the same class and both will never have a dull moment. The class is that dynamic. It's money worth spent.
Randy is a disciple of Gunsite. He adds his own philosophies to the course as well. As you can see, he holds classes in Lakeland. Hopefully that might be in your general area.
We're either going to his CQT or his 101 course again this year. I've never had better instruction than this...
Randy Cain's course on Tactical Handgun 101 will be right up your alley. My wife and I took it last year. It's anything but 101. Don't get me wrong. A person that hardly knows how to load one's gun to a LE officer with 15 years experience can attend the same class and both will never have a dull moment. The class is that dynamic. It's money worth spent.
Randy is a disciple of Gunsite. He adds his own philosophies to the course as well. As you can see, he holds classes in Lakeland. Hopefully that might be in your general area.
We're either going to his CQT or his 101 course again this year. I've never had better instruction than this...
snevensmores
New member
I didn't have time to read through all of the previous posts, but here's a take on things that you might not think about.
Voice commands and "taking charge of the situation" are integral parts of home defense. If you can control the suspect and "convince" him to surrender, it's possible that you won't have to fire a shot at all.
In law enforcement, you are trained with a FATS (firearms training simulator). I'm not sure if a normal civilian would ever have access to train with one of these, but it has video scenarios that are projected onto a wall. You are equipped with a holstered handgun (that has a laser on it to monitor your shots), and you encounter stressful situations. You must decide when to draw your weapon and whether or not to fire. You're in a room yelling at a suspect to drop his weapon, stop running, release a hostage, etc. There's a person at a computer behind you controlling the entire system. He decides how the scenario pans out. If you don't give good voice commands, he'll have the suspect do something crazy. You handle things correctly, and the suspect might surrender and you can avoid a shootout. In the end, the computer observer will go through all the scenarios and tell you what you did right/wrong and you can seel all of your shots and where they hit.
If you have access to a private area to practice, I'd recommend training on voice commands and knowing when to draw the line. Your ultimate trump card is the second you draw your weapon -- know when to play it.
PS: The first scenario that I did with FATS, about 3 years ago, a BG drew on me at close range in a bar. I was trying to pull the trigger as quickly as possible (didn't know much at all about guns at the time). I was in such a hurry, I didn't pull the trigger back until break during the first squeeze. Needless to say, I died. The next scenario, I shot a drug-smuggling truck driver in the junk as he was running, so it wasn't so bad
.
Voice commands and "taking charge of the situation" are integral parts of home defense. If you can control the suspect and "convince" him to surrender, it's possible that you won't have to fire a shot at all.
In law enforcement, you are trained with a FATS (firearms training simulator). I'm not sure if a normal civilian would ever have access to train with one of these, but it has video scenarios that are projected onto a wall. You are equipped with a holstered handgun (that has a laser on it to monitor your shots), and you encounter stressful situations. You must decide when to draw your weapon and whether or not to fire. You're in a room yelling at a suspect to drop his weapon, stop running, release a hostage, etc. There's a person at a computer behind you controlling the entire system. He decides how the scenario pans out. If you don't give good voice commands, he'll have the suspect do something crazy. You handle things correctly, and the suspect might surrender and you can avoid a shootout. In the end, the computer observer will go through all the scenarios and tell you what you did right/wrong and you can seel all of your shots and where they hit.
If you have access to a private area to practice, I'd recommend training on voice commands and knowing when to draw the line. Your ultimate trump card is the second you draw your weapon -- know when to play it.
PS: The first scenario that I did with FATS, about 3 years ago, a BG drew on me at close range in a bar. I was trying to pull the trigger as quickly as possible (didn't know much at all about guns at the time). I was in such a hurry, I didn't pull the trigger back until break during the first squeeze. Needless to say, I died. The next scenario, I shot a drug-smuggling truck driver in the junk as he was running, so it wasn't so bad
.
Covert Mission
New member
That's somewhat true, imho, with a caveat: under stress, and esp in an armed encounter with someone shooting back at you, your shooting skill degrades by 30-50% at least, it's been estimated. Any training you can do, such as FoF, which helps you operate better under that kind of stress will improve your performance in a real situation. If you're just a 70% shooter and that degrades by half, you may have a problem. Weapon operation, malfunction clearance, reloads etc all need to be practiced under some sort of stress, even if it's a USPSA match. That will reduce the level of degradation to some extent, in my experience.
In a real shooting you're dealing with tachypsychia, tunnel vision, degraded fine motor skills etc, all as a result of that adrenaline dump. Some of those physiological effects are pronounced and require training to offset, to whatever extent that is possible. I just shot some training with SIMS doing building clearing with multiple "BGs" and the stress from that was intense, in a good (beneficial) way. Very enlightening.
We just had a departmental SO shooting last night. Suspect fired at deputies, deputies shot back. The two deputies are good shots; I've qual'd with them. The ratio of misses to hits was about 5 or 6 to 1, and they were fairly close but it was night time outdoors. Their hit ratio on the range or on the simulator would have been 80-90% probably, but nothing can synthesize that real situation, and even prior shooting experience only helps some, I think (unless you have Jim Cirillo's experience and live to tell about it). Good news: both walked away unhurt (BG didn't). I'm looking forward to talking to and learning from them.
Stevie-Ray
New member
In the movie The Soldier starring Ken Wahl, a portrayal of the CIA's battle with terrorism, a friend of Wahl's character ambushes him in his home, to the point of even drawing blood, and doesn't reveal himself until Wahl draws a gun on him. At that point it's "AW SH**", he rips his hood off and says, "Hey man, how ya doin?" Wahl replies, "You ripped my shirt!"
I agree this would be too dangerous a scenario for role playing.