Silencer questions

[el_chupo_]

Boltomatic - where are you getting this information? Frankly, it sounds like a bunch of made up info and conjecture from a hunting forum.

 

[Theohazard]

What you can't do is allow someone else to be in possession of the can unless you are with them. Technically, constructive possession counts too, for example, it would be illegal for anyone to even know the combination to the safe you store your suppressor in. If big brother ever wants to start confiscating suppressors, I'll bet the first thing they are going to do is try to nail you on a constructive possession charge. The best way to get around this is to register it to a trust and add anyone who lives with you as trustees, all trustees can use the can however they please.

"Constructive possession" has nothing to do with someone else having access to your safe, "constructive possession" means that a person has the parts required to build an unregistered NFA item but they're not assembled yet.

Let's say you have a short-barreld upper and a regular lower, but no pistol lower: Even though you haven't actually assembled an SBR yet, you still have all the parts required to assemble an SBR and no other explanation for having them (you don't have a pistol-configured lower so you can't claim the short barrel was for a pistol). That's constructive possession.

 

[Sharkbite]

Paying from a trust...

I have paid for all my NFA stuff with a money order made out to the dealer. I get the bank to write my trust name in the memo line, but the money comes from my chk acct

One way or another the cash gets traced back to you personally. You put it into the trust acct and then use the trust acct to buy a can. The money still came from you.

 

[Deja vu]

For 22 pistols id put my Element 2 up against my Sparrow any day as far as quiet. As far as easy to clean the Sparrow is better. From my rifles I can't really tell a difference. So I keep my Element 2 on my Walther P22 and my Sparrow on my 10/22.

I also have a AWC Thundertrap in 45-70 that I use on my Marlin lever action. Unfortunately it is neither super quiet nor can you clean it well (sealed can). I do occasionally throw it in my ultrasonic cleaner with purple power just to try to clean the internals.

I have the paperwork in for a Liberty Infinity but I have yet to shoot it.

as far as a trust goes see what other people said. I have no experience with the trust. All of my NFA items are personal items which means when I pass I will have to have my next of kin fill out a form 5 to get the items.

 

[dogtown tom]

boltomatic .....What you can't do is allow someone else to be in possession of the can unless you are with them.

Only if the stamp was acquired by an individual. If trust is the possessor, anyone listed as a member of the trust can possess the silencer by themselves.

Technically, constructive possession counts too, for example, it would be illegal for anyone to even know the combination to the safe you store your suppressor in.

Nonsense. There is no Federal law or ATF regulation that comes anywhere close to this enduring myth.

Also, if you do set up a trust to buy your Title II toys (which I highly recommend) you should also open a bank account in the trust's name and use that account to pay for all your Title II stuff as well as the tax stamps.

Not all states require a bank account in order to set up a trust.

Technically, if the trust is buying the suppressor the trust should pay for the suppressor

Nonsense.

it also ensures your trust remains funded (it needs to be funded to be considered legit)

Again, YOUR state may require this, not all do.

Not doing so won't get your form 4 denied, but if the NFA comes under attack in the future and they start auditing past form 4's you will be better off having paid for everything with checks bearing the name of your trust.

Horsehockey.

 

[mitchntx]

Without a trust, you are the only person who can possess the suppressor; if your wife has access to your suppressor safe and you're not home, you're both breaking federal law.

For me and those of us with significant others, this is the primary reason to invest in a trust.

 

[Dave P]

".22 suppressors get very dirty very fast. "

I have a Gemtech that I cannot take apart, but after a few thousand rounds I have no need to. I am sure it is dirty, but what do I care?? Accuracy is fine.

 

[green_MTman]

what is a trust,i have never heard of such a thing

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

green mtman:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527153

 

[green_MTman]

1.what is the NFA and or NFA item

2.cops cant refuse to sign a legal license or they can be sued and be civil liable,what does a gun trust protect you from right you have been denied

3.any person legaly eligable to own a gun may shoot it with you or borrow it with your permission.in a state that requires a formal FID card anyone with an FID can handle and or borrow your gun with your permission,unless its a gun attached to a LTC permit.LTC guns may only be handled by the person with the LTC,but uncle bob is always welcome to borrow your 30-30 for that whitetail hunt in maine next fall.

4.i am so glad i have no interest in handguns and automatic rifles,no and i dont have to worry about silly laws.

5.after reading your full article i still dont see have a trust fund gets around overly strict gun laws or crooked cops

 

[el_chupo_]

1. NFA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

National Firearms Act. an item described as an "NFA item" falls under the National Firearms Act.
Includes:
Machine Guns
Short Barrel rifles/shotguns
Suppressors
Destructive Devices
Any Other Weapons (AOW).

2 The CLEO can refuse to sign off on an item, and they do in many cases. You can look at the page they sign for a Form 4 here (page 2): http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5320-4.pdf

There are other officials to ask going up the chain, and there may be legal recourse, but it is generally much easier to use a trust. Also cheaper than taking your city/state to court for a refusal of signature that they can legally defend.

3. No, anyone cannot borrow it. That may be the case in your state with regular guns. Its not a "regular gun", and there are rules about who can and cannot have access, and when, including that you must have "possession" to avoid violation of the law.

I am not familiar with "License to Carry" guns laws(apparently per MA law?), but that is not the same situation as with an NFA item. In many normal states, a "regular gun" includes a pistol you may choose to carry, and there is no license specific to a particular gun here in TX.

4. Cool story. If this is not your interest, the NFA section of a forum may not be for you. But enjoy reading about it, and maybe one day you will want to.
5. Then dont worry about it, and enjoy firearms in the way that suits you.

 

[green_MTman]

i understand.i know you could never let someone borrow a handgun or automatic rifle.i was talking about single action hunting guns only and a far as i know you may barrow or lend out those guns if the barrower is a eligable gun owner

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

i was talking about single action hunting guns only and a far as i know you may barrow or lend out those guns if the borrower is a eligible gun owner

Actually, there's no federal reason you can't loan a handgun to someone. Illegal in some states, perfectly acceptable in others. NFA classed firearms are a whole different set of rules.

 

[dogtown tom]

mitchntx

Quote:
Without a trust, you are the only person who can possess the suppressor; if your wife has access to your suppressor safe and you're not home, you're both breaking federal law.

For me and those of us with significant others, this is the primary reason to invest in a trust.

Find a better primary reason, because that claim above is bogus.

 

[Theohazard]

Tom, please explain so I can understand why I'm wrong. I have zero personal experience with CLEO sign-offs (it's almost impossible to get here and everyone uses a trust).

With a CLEO sign-off there's only one person who can posses the silencer. So if a person not on the Form 4 has full access to that silencer without the Form 4 holder home, wouldn't that count as possession?

 

[Sharkbite]

I think the ATF would have a tough time charging my wife (who has the safe combo) with possession of my NFA items just because i was not at home.

If she took one of my cans to the range without me and got caught with it... Then yes, she was unlawfully in possession.

I agree with Theo...a trust is easier to manage and use then trying to go the personal route.

Also the trust (upon my death) is a non-probate asset. Simplified transfer to heirs over personally owned and willed to someone

 

[Theohazard]

I think the ATF would have a tough time charging my wife (who has the safe combo)

I agree. I was always under the impression that this is one of those things that's technically illegal but rarely -- if ever -- prosecuted. After all, if the ATF is in your house to witness this then you've probably got other problems already.