Sig's "voluntary upgrade program" sig p320 drop fire

But you don't know that to be true.
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I don't, but common sense and intuition play a part. Those drop safeties on the trigger cost the manufactures more money. Why else would they add them other than it being found that the pistol could fire from a muzzle up drop? Why else would practically all other comparable designs use them?

I'd also point out that the supposed fix to this problem that will come when this recall starts (taking quite some time now), which has been tested and doesn't have the same problem, does not include a trigger tab at all.
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Whether the tab on the trigger is necessary or not makes no difference as far as I'm concerned. My point is if a designer chooses to leave off a safety feature that practically all other manufacturers have chosen to add to the design, they better test the heck out of that pistol before sending it out the door. Sig obviously didn't.
 
but common sense and intuition
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I'm not doubting your common sense and intuition. But neither of those are the same as facts. That was my point.

Whether the tab on the trigger is necessary or not makes no difference as far as I'm concerned.
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Given that you've brought up the trigger tab and its existence on other designs a few times now I am simply pointing out that the tab itself is not even the solution, supposedly. And again while SIG does not have the tab that other designs do it also differs from them internally so while I get your point about removing a safety feature, it's not a direct 1:1 comparison in terms of designs here.
 
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I'm not doubting your common sense and intuition. But neither of those are the same as facts. That was my point.
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True.

Given that you've brought up the trigger tab and its existence on other designs a few times now I am simply pointing out that the tab itself is not even the solution, supposedly.
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It seems to be the industry standard though. I'm assuming that it is the easiest way possible to design a pistol that is truly drop safe, or at least to the degree that most if not all others are, being that all others are using it.

I have no doubt that a tab on the trigger would have prevented this issue on the Sig P320.
 
I have no doubt that a tab on the trigger would have prevented this issue on the Sig P320.
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Very likely. In all honesty I have zero issue with a tab on a trigger. Literally all the other striker fired pistols I have, absent the P99 (but that also has a DA trigger), have it and it doesn't bother me in terms of why it's there or how it feels. I never got how it was a selling point to not have one.
 
Literally all the other striker fired pistols I have, absent the P99 (but that also has a DA trigger), have it and it doesn't bother me in terms of why it's there or how it feels.
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Even the P99 has a drop safety on the trigger. Rather than having a tab on the trigger, the entire trigger pivots while being pulled to the rear. The design is different, but it accomplishes the same thing. It was more than likely put there to prevent a discharge if the pistol was already cocked in SA mode, and then dropped.

I never got how it was a selling point to not have one.
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Me neither.

From this point on, I think it will be a negative if a striker fired pistol doesn't have one, as far as I'm concerned. I understand how the tab on the trigger works, and I understand why everyone else uses it. If another manufacturer chose to make a pistol without one, I wouldn't feel comfortable loading it until I understood what safety features they put in place to replace it.
 
Even the P99 has a drop safety on the trigger. Rather than having a tab on the trigger, the entire trigger pivots while being pulled to the rear. The design is different, but it accomplishes the same thing. It was more than likely put there to prevent a discharge if the pistol was already cocked in SA mode, and then dropped.
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Frankly, this is the best design I've seen yet for this type of device. It eliminates pretty much every complaint about the trigger tab while providing the exact same functionality. I'm surprised we haven't seen it on more pistols (including Walther's own P99Q/P99RAD/PPQ).
 
Really hate the term "Voluntary Upgrade Program". Sig should man-up and do a recall because this is a safety issue. Completely see where the OP is coming from.
 
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That's what I don't get. Why isn't it on the PPQ?
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The P99 has two different trigger positions with the DA and SA modes of the trigger. There is one drop safety notch on the P99 trigger for the DA trigger position, and another drop safety notch for the SA trigger position. Walther chose to have a drop safety notch for each trigger position.

The PPQ, and almost all other striker fired pistols only have one trigger position that the manufacturers need to worry about. The P99 DAO also had a Glock-style drop safety.

Really hate the term "Voluntary Upgrade Program". Sig should man-up and do a recall because this is a safety issue.
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I agree.
 
Drama aside, I am awaiting word from SIG to send mine in and I don't plan to sell it at all. Seems every other gun that comes out has teething problems and people gang up on them when it happens. Gun owners can be quite fickle. My understanding is that the new trigger also breaks cleaner and feels better so I'm just looking forward to that. In a couple of years people will forget all about the issue. I don't hear anyone still worried that their Beretta slide is going to fracture and hit them in the face
 
I don't think expecting a pistol to pass a test that many other manufacturers can pass is being "fickle". For me personally it's not so much that there was a problem, but when SIG knew of that problem and if they planned to let the general public know before this story really took off.
 
In the grand scheme of things this is a tiny speed bump for SIG. The gun has to fall at an exact angle to go off and it's not due to any inherent design flaw, it's only due to gravity pulling the trigger with no trigger safety. The gun was out for years before this even came to light. If it were a huge flaw then it would have come out much sooner. Now that it has come out I see people completely losing their confidence in the gun altogether and wanting to sell them off. That's what I am referring to as fickle. Not how people take to the upgrade program vs a total recall, which to me is also being blown out of proportion because again the gun was out for years and buyers were happy with it until this issue stemmed up. The guns will get fixed, SIG left owners who don't think it's a big deal with the option of just keeping their gun as it is, and those of us who send our guns in will get a trigger upgrade out of it from what I've heard. People totally losing faith in the design is unwarranted IMO.
 
To me the lack of trigger safety or something that prevents this from happening is a bit of a design flaw. I agree that the pistol has been on the market for a number of years and there haven't been dozens of reports so the chances of this happening don't appear to be particularly high. If people want to sell a product because of a recall or upgrade that happens that is of course entirely up to them. Having new information can change opinions and I'm personally not going to tell someone what is and isn't unwarranted when it comes to safety.

One note I will make is your comment that, "the guns will get fixed." Well yes and no. This is an upgrade not a recall. There are a number of gun owners out there that frankly aren't as invested in this as those of us on this forum. I find it pretty feasible that a percentage of them have no idea this upgrade is even a thing, and the fact is that even in NH I have been in multiple gun stores now and been in SIG's newer large scale displays with fancier racks, video displays, and the like and seen absolutely no mention of this upgrade. I also see product still for sale that no doubt hasn't had the upgrade but there is no way of an unsuspecting buyer of knowing this. So these buyers aren't getting the opportunity to make the decision you're referring to until after they've made the purchase, or perhaps they never find out as time goes by and this story fades. That's a bit disingenuous on the part of SIG IMO.
 
My understanding is that SIG stopped production completely while rolling in with the voluntary upgrade program so that no more pistols would exit the factory in need of the upgrade. I also was under the impression that they asked dealers to send the guns back, that may have been incorrect if you're still seeing them sold. I can see that as a fair point of contention. Regardless, I am still confident in the design especially with the upgrade. It fixes the drop issue without a trigger safety, and I prefer the lack of a trigger safety as well.
 
It doesn't matter how many they sold or for how long. What matters is how many sold were dropped in that time frame, and there is no way to know. For all we know, it could be that all P320 pistols that were dropped, discharged, and then again, it could be a very small percentage.

Who keeps these numbers anyway? I would think that Sig would be in the best position to, but then after all this information came out, do you really trust them to tell you? There were reportedly four of these drop-fires, according to reports on the internet, and one police officer who finally sued Sig for getting shot by a holstered pistol. If you were to believe Sig, there were none on the commercial market. They've lost credibility as far as I'm concerned, and I'm sitting here trying to imagine what it would take for them to lose credibility in others minds as well.

I have very little doubt that they knew about the issue, and flat out lied. Then, when it couldn't be hidden anymore, they made a "voluntary upgrade" rather than a full blown recall. They found out there was an issue, and they found the issue, and they found a fix for the issue, and they found out the M17 wasn't effected, all in what seemed like a day.

As it turns out, gun owners will boycott manufacturers that side with politicians who want stricter gun control laws (as they should), but if a manufacturer makes a pistol that is unsafe to the point that dropping it two and a half feet can literally kill you, and then the manufacturer seems very likely to have lied, gun owners will defend them, and call others fickle, and obviously believe that every department that has suspended use of the P320, or every retailer who chose to no longer sell the P320, are overreacting.

Sig stopped production of the P320. Sig offered to fix around half a million pistols, on their dime. If this wasn't a "huge flaw", then my question is, why? If the pistol firing when your finger is not on the trigger is not a "huge flaw", I'm honestly curious what is.
 
I had a P320 X Carry on pre-order since March, I called Sig last week to see what the status was with the release date. I was told that they had all of the P320X pistols that had been released returned to be fixed. They also told me that they could not tell me what the planned dated was to start releasing these at the present time. So even though I really did want this pistol I cancelled and went with a CZ 75. May get one later but for now I will wait till all of this is resolved.
 
They found out there was an issue, and they found the issue, and they found a fix for the issue, and they found out the M17 wasn't effected, all in what seemed like a day.
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I think that I haven't considered this issue to be a big problem, because I tested the SNOT out of my P320 Compact out in the desert. Granted, mine has always run the Apex flatty, so I don't know if that makes a difference, but I dropped and even threw the gun(with a snap cap) many times. Just trying everything I could to get it to stop working, because I was so impressed with it's reliability. Mine never released the striker through all of the testing. This was about a year and a half ago.

So, I don't really have a problem with this being a voluntary upgrade vs a complete recall, because it doesn't fail any industry testing. We can make the argument that this means the industry testing protocols should be updated, but that's a different discussion, but not one that I'm trying to have here...

With all of that said.... I'm actually very curious as to what the differences are in the trigger mechanism which causes the M17 to be unaffected. I didn't realize there were significant changes to the design for the contract pistol. It would be cool to know why that is.
 
With all of that said.... I'm actually very curious as to what the differences are in the trigger mechanism which causes the M17 to be unaffected. I didn't realize there were significant changes to the design for the contract pistol. It would be cool to know why that is.
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For me that is the rub. They knew something was wrong because they made a change to the trigger for the M17 contract. The test pistols had the original design but Sig volunteered the new trigger at no additional charge and the Govt accepted. There was nothing in the spec that demanded a different trigger design. The only major addition IIRC was a manual safety but that could have been added without a trigger redesign. This still leads me to believe they knew there was a potential issue and they got ahead of it on the M17 but not the commercial market. :rolleyes:

The lawsuit and the publicity from the videos are the only reason Sig is addressing the pistols currently in the market. Otherwise they would have introduced the new trigger and an improvement not an upgrade to the safety of the pistol.
 
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My understanding is it did pass the M17 trials with the original trigger and the change was made afterwards.


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IMightBeWrong said:
In the grand scheme of things this is a tiny speed bump for SIG. The gun has to fall at an exact angle to go off and it's not due to any inherent design flaw, it's only due to gravity pulling the trigger with no trigger safety. The gun was out for years before this even came to light. If it were a huge flaw then it would have come out much sooner. Now that it has come out I see people completely losing their confidence in the gun altogether and wanting to sell them off. That's what I am referring to as fickle. Not how people take to the upgrade program vs a total recall, which to me is also being blown out of proportion because again the gun was out for years and buyers were happy with it until this issue stemmed up. The guns will get fixed, SIG left owners who don't think it's a big deal with the option of just keeping their gun as it is, and those of us who send our guns in will get a trigger upgrade out of it from what I've heard. People totally losing faith in the design is unwarranted IMO.
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I have not lost faith in the design as much as I have lost faith in Sig delivering quality tested and reliably product to the market. The days of "To Hell and Back Reality" are long gone. This is just another in a long line of Sig development and QC missteps.
 
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