Sight picture questions

O

OhioGuy

New member
I recently purchased a new CZ P07 and after 150 rounds determined that I need to aim with a 6:00 hold, with the bullets impacting above the front sight. At 45" the front sight pretty much covers a 4" area on the target. Floating that 4" circle on top of the sights gets me hits within the circle.

The manual didn't specify how the sights are configured. The Ameriglo night sights I had on my Springfield XD gave me hits directly where put the front sight. My Walther PPQ pistols (.22 and Q5) also both impact exactly where the sight is pointing. Both have adjustable rear sights but aimed this way from the factory and I've never adjusted them. "Put the dot where the bullet should go" seems intuitive to me. I have an XS Big Dot sight on another gun, and they say the sights become a 6:00 hold beyond 45 feet because of the bullet flight path

Anyways I'm looking at new sights for the CZ regardless and asked this question of Cajun Gun Works. Their response was:

"The world standard for all iron sights is a 6:00 hold, CZ's adhere to this as well, as do our sights. We would not do the sight correction for a "hold on" type sight picture, this would be custom ordered sights."

Is this really the case for most three dot iron sights?

What does everyone prefer? Is there an advantage to a 6:00 hold in defensive situations? With Little time to align sights under stress I'd think just putting the front sight on the target are would be the best choice.

Anyways, just looking for perspective. At least I know my new sights aren't misaligned, they're just intended to aim differently than I'm used to.
 
The world standard they say? Interesting. Someone here will hopefully post the standard image of the different sight pictures. Most of the pistols I've used are not 6 o'clock. Typically the front sight has to overlap the desired POI to some extent.

You can get sights as you desire for your CZ. Dawson Precision will set up the POA/POI anyway you want.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
There is no such thing as "a" 6:00 hold, as using that sight alignment requires a single load, at a single distance, on a target of known, consistent diameter.

On a 9mm pistol, you could have a gun intended to hit 1" above POA at 25yds with factory 115gr ammo, but, of course, that gun could not also hit 3" above POA at 50 yards with factory 147gr ammo (except by coincidence).

6:00 is specific to the distance, target diameter, load, and the shooter.

I prefer that bullets land "on top of the front sight" at 25 yards, as that's a practical zero for any shooting I'm going to do. I rarely ever shoot at anything smaller than 6", and distances are rarely beyond 25 yards, so I can aim at the center and get a hit if I do my part.
 
There is no such thing as "a" 6:00 hold, as using that sight alignment requires a single load, at a single distance, on a target of known, consistent diameter.
Click to expand...

A very astute observation. If you think about it, it makes sense.

I didn't figure this out on my own but was told this back in my youth when I did some target shooting.

The six o'clock hold was what we used. for target shooting. We were told it was easier to be more precise. That is, if you tell somebody to keep the smallest possible sliver of light between the top of the front post and bullseye so that the bullseye just touches the front site post, (the image I link to calls it the pumpkin on the fence post) they can be more 'discerning' than if you tell them to put the top of the front post even with the center of the bullseye. And as RickB said, this shooting was always done at the same distance with the same size targets with the same size circular bullseyes on the targets.

Here's a link to a Google image...there are LOTS of sight pictures in Google...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...WIbTw#imgrc=ZcOkIx9FjBhTvM:&spf=1510265326169
 
Last edited:
TunnelRat said:
The world standard they say? Interesting. Someone here will hopefully post the standard image of the different sight pictures. Most of the pistols I've used are not 6 o'clock. Typically the front sight has to overlap the desired POI to some extent.

You can get sights as you desire for your CZ. Dawson Precision will set up the POA/POI anyway you want.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Sight-Image-NavyGuy.jpg
 
Sight picture will vary based on distance to the target and the load you are using.

A pistol that hits well with a 6 o-clock hold at 25yds, may need a standard hold at 7yds. (sight pic 2 above)

A pistol may use all three styles for different ranges.


Thing is... For defense, it doesn't matter what hold you use. Pick your favorite and use it consistently. (type 2 and 3 above are arguably better suited for defense though)

All should net you center of mass hits from 0-25yds. Defense shooting tends to focus on effective hits quickly. Two or three hits to COM that can stay within the center scoring area of an IDPA target, is better than one perfectly centered hit.


As far as the "6 o-clock doesn't obscure the target" thing... Thats more relevant to target shooting than defensive shooting. the average person is a lot bigger behind the sights than a bullseye is. You are aiming at COM, which is not a small area.


If you are a target shooter, then sight picture matters more, and you will be shooting at known distances and sized targets.
 
"The world standard for all iron sights is a 6:00 hold, CZ's adhere to this as well, as do our sights. We would not do the sight correction for a "hold on" type sight picture, this would be custom ordered sights."

Is this really the case for most three dot iron sights?

What does everyone prefer? Is there an advantage to a 6:00 hold in defensive situations? With Little time to align sights under stress I'd think just putting the front sight on the target are would be the best choice.
Click to expand...

Fixed iron sights are set for a 6 o'clock hold on a 6" bull at 25 yards with a specific weight bullet that is "standard" for the caliber. 230 gr. for a 45, 158 gr. for a 38 Spl. or .357, etc. It's been this way for over a century. Change the weight of the bullet and the point of impact will change. This is generally the case with service sized handguns.

This is off the sights. The dots are irrelevant.

This means that if the shooter is steady enough a shot taken with a 6 o'clock hold on a 6" bull will land 3" high, in the middle of that bull, at 25 yards.

It's also why folks use adjustable sights.

In reality from 3 feet out to 25 yards the difference is minimal an inch or 2" depending on the round. Most shooters can't actually tell the difference.

In defensive shooting it will make no practical difference. Try it and see for yourself.

If you let it get inside your head, then adjustable sights are an option.

tipoc
 
Last edited:
Fixed iron sights are set for a 6 o'clock hold on a 6" bull at 25 yards with a specific weight bullet that is "standard" for the caliber. 230 gr. for a 45, 158 gr. for a 38 Spl. or .357, etc. It's been this way for over a century. Change the weight of the bullet and the point of impact will change. This is generally the case with service sized handguns.

This is off the sights. The dots are irrelevant.

This means that if the shooter is steady enough a shot taken with a 6 o'clock hold on a 6" bull will land 3" high, in the middle of that bull, at 25 yards.
Click to expand...

I've owned 80+ handguns. The overwhelming majority did not impact 3" high at 25 yds. I don't doubt that there are pistols set up this way, but I do not believe it is the norm for defensive pistol sights.
 
The overwhelming majority did not impact 3" high at 25 yds. I don't doubt that there are pistols set up this way, but I do not believe it is the norm for defensive pistol sights.
Click to expand...

It's the norm. The difference is the average hand, the stocks, the weight of the bullet, differences in manufacturing, etc. A 125 gr. pill will have a lower poi than a 158 gr. in a 38 or 357, a 230 gr. from a GM will have a higher poi than a 185 gr.

Also, what's the difference between a "defensive" handgun and most others? Over the decades the main difference between a "target" gun and a "duty" gun has been adjustable sights. Though over the years many duty sidearms have had adjustable sights to cover just the situation we're discussing.

The "norm" means that there are guns outside of that. What many manufacturers do with a wide variety of guns these days, from micro compacts to duty size, well I don't know. In some cases they may be set at shorter distances for sub compact guns. It's also likely that, given the popularity of the 125 gr. bullets in the .357 Mag, that some .357s with fixed sights are, nowdays, set for poa/poi, I would not doubt that these days.

Going back generations S&W, Colt, Ruger and others in the U.S. and internationally use the same formulas based on bullet weight, distance between front and rear sights and the relationship between the height of the front to the rear sight to center line of the bore, to set a norm, a standard.

Julian Hatcher explained this a long way back.

The best way to check this for oneself is to get some ammo that you know is accurate from your gun, of different weight bullets, and go to the range and shoot at 25 yards off of a rest. See what you see.

The fellas at CZ told the fella right. You can always get a front sight that is too tall and file it to suit your tastes.

tipoc
 
The best way to check this for oneself is to get some ammo that you know is accurate from your gun, of different weight bullets, and go to the range and shoot at 25 yards off of a rest. See what you see.
Click to expand...

I've done that. My experience, as stated above, has not shown what you said. This is shooting 124 gr 9mm at 25 yds with a variety of manufacturers out of each pistol. We're also not talking revolvers, and while I don't expect that to make a notable difference in terms of ballistics what was the standard set up 30 years ago may not be now. The overwhelming majority of semiautomatic duty style 9mms I have owned, and again that covers Ruger, SIG, S&W, Glock, Walther, HK, CZ even, etc, follow more of the second or third sight picture in terms of POA=POI.
 
It only makes a difference when shooting at paper at 25 yards, if the shooter is good enough to notice a difference. Pick the one you like best for everyday work. It will make no practical difference.

In a defensive bit of shooting, where the thing you are shooting at (critter or person) is moving and you are moving how much difference will it make? Likely none.One reason is that you won't have that much time for a fine aim unless you can get the both of you to stand still for a few seconds and stop breathing so hard and have no adrenaline shake.

Take a 3" bullseye and set it up at 10 yards from you at the range. Fire 10 or 12 rounds till you can keep all your shots inside the 3" ring. Try it several times using different points of aim with your chosen ammo. See what, if any practical difference it makes. Use different guns, different ammo. Take a year to test it.

tipoc
 
In a defensive bit of shooting, where the thing you are shooting at (critter or person) is moving and you are moving how much difference will it make? Likely none.One reason is that you won't have that much time for a fine aim unless you can get the both of you to stand still for a few seconds and stop breathing so hard and have no adrenaline shake.
Click to expand...

I'm well aware of that, but I'm trying to address the OP's question.

Take a 3" bullseye and set it up at 10 yards from you at the range. Fire 10 or 12 rounds till you can keep all your shots inside the 3" ring. Try it several times using different points of aim with your chosen ammo. See what, if any practical difference it makes. Use different guns, different ammo. Take a year to test it.
Click to expand...

I've been doing this essentially every weekend for years now. I have had different sights require slightly different holds. It's never overly dramatic, but I have switched out front sights for different heights.
 
Thanks for the thorough explanations!

Sight picture #1 is what lands accurate shots for me beyond about 45 feet so far, leveling the tops of all the sights.

Leveling the dots results in something more like #2.

If I'm not taking lots of time to aim, yeah, it makes little difference! And definitely not at 25' and under.
 
Tunnel rat,

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying. I apologize.

To the OP, Cajun ought to be able to install fixed sights that can help you in one way or another. If they are oversized you may have to file on them some. If they can't talk to someone else. The options are out there to fit guns to our preferences.



tipoc
 
No apology needed. In the end your last comment is right. Sights can be made to fit whatever the shooter wants. You can file them or in some cases buy fronts of varying height.

Sight picture #1 is what lands accurate shots for me beyond about 45 feet so far, leveling the tops of all the sights.

Leveling the dots results in something more like #2.
Click to expand...

If I read this right you mean that if you level the tops it does not also level the dots?
 
TunnelRat said:
No apology needed. In the end your last comment is right. Sights can be made to fit whatever the shooter wants. You can file them or in some cases buy fronts of varying height.



If I read this right you mean that if you level the tops it does not also level the dots?
Click to expand...
Correct. The dots don't appear level when the sight posts are. I have to dip the muzzle slightly to align the dots.
 
I use the 6 o'clock hold , it all depends on the size of the target , meaning I want my bullet to hit on top of the front sight .as an example , if I'm shooting at a baseball at 25 yards my hold is at the base of the ball . Shooting at a basketball my hold would would be lower to center.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top