[sigh] Possible? Shots from TX School Book Depository, November, 1963

L

Long Path

New member
Well, it's not a huge issue to me, but it's been brought up on this board whether or not the shots fired in Dealey Plaza in Dallas, TX, November of 1963, were capable of being fired by a sub-expert marksman with the Carcano rifle and its mediocre 'scope. I don't know the exact date of the broadcast, but it seems to me that back in the early '70's, a major network tried it (I want to say ABC), and got 2 or more to do it, in the time frame provided by the tapes of the microphones keyed at the time, and the video on the Zapruder film.

Any-way, I don't any longer have the time frames of the stipulated shot-to-shot hits and misses. Keep in mind that we're not talking about the ability to consistantly put these shots into the size of an A-Zone hit, but rather into the areas that were hit. (At least one missed the car completely.) If anyone has any info on the time frames, where ea. shot hit, and who did the testing, I'd be curious.

My contention is, whether or not a man alone did it (and this is definitely NOT my question-- that debate can and will go on in other arenas far after all the principles are dead), a man alone could have made the shots in the allotted time.

I know, I know-- I'm asking you to disregard a LOT of other evidence. I don't care about directions of shot trajectories or reactions of the targets, etc. The question is: would it have been possible? I say yes, any decently trained rifleman could have, particularly one with some hunting experience.

Comments?

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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?

Matt
 
I agree that a skilled rifleman could have made the shots. I just don't buy that Oswald acted alone. I think there were three shooters in three different locations. The "magic bullet" is not possible.



[This message has been edited by henryb (edited September 20, 1999).]
 
All you have to do is see the Magruder film, videos are avail from Blockbuster for less than 10 bucks. There is no question that Kennedy was shot from multiple directions, and yes there can be no majic bullet. The shots heard could have been from different positions, and one or more could have missed, the fact is tough that some didn't and the government covered up what really happened... Why and to protect whom is what we must find out....

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What part of "INFRINGED" don't they understand?
 
OK. I was the one who opened this can of worms. I should learn to keep my mouth shut. Oh, well, if I ain't learned in 45 years, I reckon I'll have to learn to live with it.

What I want to know is whether or not anyone has ever staged an exact reenactment. Same rifle, same scope, same ammo, using a window the same height and shooting at a moving target going the same speed at the same distance. And then scored three hits on a man sized target within the same time frame. I have heard it claimed that all of the above has been done except the time frame. That the top score was about a second slower. Anyone know?

I'm not really interested in grassy knoll and the ins and outs of the various theories. Just want to know if the reenactment has been tried, how exact it was, and what the results were.

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Byron Quick
 
Sparticus--

You and I are on the same page. I know I've read of at least one reenactment successfully completed.

As I say-- Single Bullet Theories, Grassy Knolls, Multiple Gunman, and reaction of targets are of no interest to me; I'm just trying to run down the specifics of the times, and distances (speed if possible) of the shots stipulated to come from the window in the TX S.D.B., and the reenactment that followed.

Thanks for your attention on this narrow topic.

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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?

Matt
 
Having handles and shot a Manlicher-Carcano (with great trepidation!), I had been hard-pressed to fire it fast even w/o aiming...the device is amazingly awkward to use.
 
I know that four very accomplished riflemen tried to duplicate the timed fire with the time starting AT the first shot and were unable to do it.
You might get the shots off but they wouldnt be aimed.
Some of you know that I'm NOT a conspiracy theorist,so go figure!

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
In the awesome book "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross, there is a competition that offers a prize to anyone who can duplicate the feat with the same rifle firing at a moving car full of mannequins. No one duplicates it.

Of course, this is a work of fiction and therefore just the opinion of the author.
 
I remember seeing a reenactment of the shooting using folks provided by the NRA. (this is 20 years ago) As I recall, it was done but not often.

Mas Ayoob in AH had a column on the whole thing. According to him, LHO was a lefty. I have no idea if that would have sped things up or not. He seemed to think it would.

On the other hand, my bro-in-law visited the site and was of the opinion that it was a chip shot. He is a very talented rifleman, so take that into consideration.

We (B-in-L) and I have head shot more than a few deer and we have never seen one be propelled on a reciprocal bearing. Sideways or backwards yes.

Giz

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"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it sounds like
they're snoring." -Harvey Danger, "Flagpole Sitta"
 
Gizmo99, you are correct.
That was a good article.
As I recall, there were three shooters(all left handed like Lee) that could make the shots. I think they used the scope for the first shot or two, then ended up using the iron sights for the test.

I am not a conspriacy person in the slightest, but this is an interesting fictional story. It's called, "Having Lunch with Two Friends in Downtown Dallas".

Once upon a time, a gun type person asked two Agency people(one retired, one active) that he knows, "Who do you think did it?".

Both say that the "official" unofficial belief in the intelligence community is that there were three shooters. Both say oftentimes, the best place to hide the truth is out in the open. ;) Oy!

"What do you mean?" asks our gun type person.

The Agency guys say that generally, the story told by the former Mafia attorney on the PBS "Frontline" episode is believed to be accurate. The two known back-up shooters fly down from up North (Detroit), stop off in Houston, sneak into Dallas the day before, and early the day after, disappear overseas.

"Why do you believe the two shooters did it?" asks the gun type guy. Because that's the reason these kind of folks show-up anywhere. They didn't come to Dallas to "check-out Six Flags over Texas!".

"But", the gun type guy continues, "What about Oswald?" A very, very happy accident for the Mob. They come across him in New Orleans, groom him, work him, have Ruby watch him on the Dallas end, and then send two back-ups as "have been done before" to make sure the job is done. Lee "made his bones" with the General.

As one of the mob type guys said, they needed to get rid of Bobby before they all end up in prison. How could the Kennedys do that to us, after we delivered the critical labor vote so Jack could win? The other mob type guy says, no. If we nail Bobby, Jack will come after us. Now, if we nail Jack, LBJ will be president. LBJ hates Bobby, and the problem with Bobby will go away.
And, indeed, that's precisely how it went down in the Whitehouse.

The two mob type guys were talking in a semi-public place about this in Dallas before the shooting, and bragging about it the night of the shooting in the same place over dinner.

"Didn't Oswald get a few shots out?" says the gun type guy. The Agency guys say, "Yeah, he probably got out three, but as the car gets down toward the tunnel, all the two other shooters see is Jack grabbing his throat, and Connally (sp?) looking distressed.

They probably thought that Oswald blew it, and just injured Jack, then one of the two shooters finished the job." "With what?" asked the gun type guy. "The popular vote is a fragmenting 22-250".
"What about all the other theories about Castro, and the others?" asks the gun type guy. "It sells a lot of crap in Dealy Plaza" says one of the Agency guys. Sure does....
Great fiction.

Here's some more great fiction.

Down in South America, lets say in May of '73, six fresh cadavers were tested at the proper distance with the appropriate Norma 6.5 Carcano stuff, and none of them even vaguely exhibited what happened to Jack. Probably the same source as the "Strasborg goat tests" Rich. ;) The Fackler film showing a somewhat similar test was done at less than 5(!) feet. Very accurate. Very scientific.(?)
Great fiction.

Same as it ever was......


[This message has been edited by David Wright (edited September 21, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by David Wright (edited September 21, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by David Wright (edited September 21, 1999).]
 
I know that the Cuban Connection was the theory of choice at some very high levels. Do you think it possible that the Cubans and the Mafia had a joint venture?

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Ed,
the Cubans (and others) may have entertained it, but that's all. And in polite disagreement to what Rich said about Pentagon types and others, they do indeed talk. Sometimes they speak volumes without saying a word. Whew, I hate to dance around this stuff. ;)

As for other stuff, what Rich has alluded to on another post is true. Just about all of the crap that goes on is due to incompetent and/or corrupt folks trying to "cover their assets" when they mess up. Conspiracy fans as a group never seem to want to believe the obvious sometimes. You can even see this type of behavior in the public workplace regarding "hiding boo-boos". I used to see it all the time......

There was no conspiracy per se at Ruby Ridge or Waco. Just folks trying to cover FUBARS in public. Maybe a "mini" conspiracy began when they tried to cover their tracks.

Did you enjoy my story?
 
Talk about coincidence. This months issue of Tactical Shooter has a sniper competition in South Texas.

The author of the article talks about how the left handed bolt gun shooter smokes everybody else on the movers - seems he maintains his firing grip with his left hand and manipulates the bolt with his right.

I am going to borrow a buddies LH rifle and check this out.

Giz

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"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it sounds like
they're snoring." -Harvey Danger, "Flagpole Sitta"
 
David; Yes I enjoyed your story.You are probably 100% correct about the FUBAR's and the CYA"s but what were they doing there in the first place??

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Why,...Ed,....Who is "they"? And, "were" are you talking about?

What do you mean? ;)

They were just doing their job....

Let's see how Reno handles this latest
hemmorhage......Then, depending on the outcome, maybe it will be showtime.

Gizmo, wish I could make that one. I designed and ran one of the six stages last October up at the Texas Pistol Academy match, and it was a blast. The owner,Duhon, does good work up there. Lotsa good LEO shooters and even a couple of Marine bolt rifle shooters.

Maybe you have seen Texas Brigade Armory or Mike Lau mentioned in Tactical Shooter. He's a friend and my "armorer". Nice to have your armorer live 5 minutes away. Hoo Ya.


[This message has been edited by David Wright (edited September 21, 1999).]
 
Massad Ayyob had an entire "Ayoob Files" article in Amercian Handgunner in, I beleive, the Feb. '96 issue. Here are the salient points, as I remember them:

- Rich Davis, designer and manufacturer of Second Chance bullet-resistant vests, used to run a JFK simulation as a part of his yearly Second Chance gun shoot. At the time of the article, only two people could duplicate the one shooter scenario of the JFK assination out of approximately 600 shooters.

These two shooters had the following in common:
- They were right handed shooters who shot left handed. This meant that they could leave their right hand on the bolt handle thru the second and third shot and therefore shoot in the time required and hit the target (a 10" pie pan moving at the same speed and angle as the limo in Dallas).

- Although Davis replicated the rifle and ammo, they couldn't find the exact same scope, so they used a Weaver K4 scope (I don't recall the disparaging comments made by Ayoob, but apparently it came close to the "quality" of the scope that Oswald used). The two shooters above used the scope for the first shot, but then used the iron sights for shots 2 and 3. I seem to recall Ayoob saying that the range was only 60-90 yards, well within the possibility of someone hitting the target at that range (he used the 30-30 lever action as an example of how people have been accurately hitting targets for decades with iron sights)

Now, here is the upshot: Oswald was right-handed (as noted by the Warren Commision) but shot left-handed as reported by USMC records and people who shot with him in the USMC (but this was not noted by the Warren Commision). Furthermore, Oswald was in the Marine Corps and earned the, I beleive, Sharpshooter Badge (or equivalent). Someone who is or has been in the USMC would have to tell us how good a shooter someone would have to be to earn this badge.

The bottom line conclusion of the Ayoob article: It is possible for one person to fire the three shots in the time allocated and hit the target at least twice. Therefore, the conspiracy buffs cannot use this as a reason that one person could not have assasinated JFK. Note that I am not saying Oswald did it, I am only saying that people cannot say that one person could not have done it. Ayoob notes that just maybe, as much as we hate to think it, one deranged person did kill JFK and he wasn't assisinated for some grand purpose, after all.

I highly recommend that you get a copy of the article; call American Handgunner for a back copy or call Ayoob at Lethal Force Institue (recguns.com will have the phone/address).

I hope this helps.

Albin
 
Somewhere, years ago, I read an article (I believe in a gun rag) that said a right-handed shooter duplicated the purported scenario by manipulating the bolt with his thumb and forefinger and using his LITTLE finger on the trigger.

It seemed so far out to me at the time that I paid little attention to the article.

Has anyone else even heard of this?
 
Dennis--

As this technique (triggering with little finger) was at one time trained to soldiers firing the SMLE, it's not at all unlikely that that was the technique used. With practice, it's pretty gosh-darned fast, though I feel odd doing it. As for shooting from left shoulder with a right-handed rifle, I just shouldered my favorite bolt action and... Not too bad... I don't recommend it as a rule for sporting shots, due to the way most rifles vent their gasses, but... this could be a going proposition!

Lotsa good stuff, here.
 
Yes, it can and has been don on film. CBS did it with 3 shooters (all NRA HI-Power compititors) 2 of the 3 made the 3 hits on a moving target from the same hight and same angles, the 3rd made 2hits. All shooters were fireing with a Carcano they were in a tower and the target was moving on tracks that replacated the KNOWN speed and path of the car.

As for the magic bullet theroy I belive that oswald did make the shot and it did do just what we see on the z-film. as for the "prestine" bullet this term is often misinterpted, the "prestine" refers not to bullet shape but to bullet mass it was infact greatly deformed due to an impact but it did not loose any appricalble mass.
 
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