Sig P320..what say you owners?

M

mrray13

New member
My department is thinking of switching from being a provide your own firearm, to using department issued weapons. We are a small Sheriff's Department, with 7 road deputies, 3 officers and 2 bailiffs. My Chief Deputy has learned that the FBI, as well as the Hawaii Department of Safety, Oklahoma Highway Patrol and High Point PD of NC, has adopted the 320. His personal 320 arrives next week.

We, him and I, have discussed possible choices, with the M&P being the favored candidate, but Glock being the frontrunner due to cost. The department is considering issuing a full size duty and either a compact or sub compact, for off duty and back up. So full size mags have to fit the smaller pistol.

Now the Sheriff is waffling on the two pistol deal, so enter the 320. We can evidently get them for Glock like prices, with the second frame being cheaper then a second gun. So, while we lose the BUG aspect, we maintain a smaller off duty option issued, provided by the department.

Soooooooo, does the full size mags fit the carry,compact and sub compact frames? And on down the line? How do you like your 320, the good, the bad, the ugly? Just what are your overall opinions? What do think of the aftermarket support, ie; is it strong?

Chief has shot one, said the sights were initially hard to find, higher than used to bore axis, but once figured out, liked it a lot. I'm going to at least fondle his when it gets here, but am also going to try and shot it. Till then, your opinions are appreciated.
 
Some people do not like the high bore axis and complain that there is more muzzle rise on the 320 as compared to a glock or m&p. I have the full size and compact 320's in 9mm. The full size definitely does have more felt recoil and muzzle rise than some of its competitors just because of the higher bore axis. The compact is more manageable I believe because of the dual recoil spring assembly. They are both excellent shooters. I have 4 spare mags for each and use the full size mags in the compact regularly and they work fine. I sold all my glocks to buy 320's. Was tired of brass in the face. The trigger on the 320 is far superior to any factory glock in my opinion. Overall I am happy with both of them. I have close to 1000 rounds through each of them without a single malfunction.
 
Soooooooo, does the full size mags fit the carry,compact and sub compact frames? And on down the line? How do you like your 320, the good, the bad, the ugly? Just what are your overall opinions? What do think of the aftermarket support, ie; is it strong?

Chief has shot one, said the sights were initially hard to find, higher than used to bore axis, but once figured out, liked it a lot. I'm going to at least fondle his when it gets here, but am also going to try and shot it. Till then, your opinions are appreciated.
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All the mags for the same caliber P320 will fit down the line. Fullsized 17+1 9mm mags will fit and function on the compact and the subcompact frame.

I have one in 45 ACP and I like it but I like Sigs. The higher bore axis does not bother me. The medium grip feels good in my smaller hands. The quality of the polymer is good. It is not HK feel in the hand good but it is on par or better than Glock. IMHO. The overall build quality is good. Not P series good but good and for the money it is excellent. Retail civilians can get these gun in the $450-$475 range.

It is one of the better striker fired triggers on the market if you like to "prep" the trigger. It is not as clean as say the PPQ but I can shoot the P320 at speed better than the PPQ. It has a nice clean pull will a little take up and a predictable clean break. It resets nicely and that reset is predictable so "prepping" the trigger for follow up shots is easily achieved.

Sig has a lot riding on this gun. Sig is becoming sort of a 3 tiered company in its offerings. The higher end guns like the Legion series and the US made P210 will satisfy the high end shooters. It is my understanding that this segment will grow to replace the old German Mastershop guns if there is demand.

Then there is the P series guns which will will be a middle ground tier. I think we will see less models and less variation here in the coming years. These will get back to the meat and potatoes type guns that built the Sig reputation instead of 12 versions basically the same P226.

Finally the lower tier which is not to say lower quality it is these will be the lowest price point guns which will become the backbone of Sigs business. This is where the P320 come in. Sig learned from the failure of the P250 and built the P320 out of it ashes IMHO. The built this gun to compete with Glock in the big LEO market at the same time building it as an entry level consumer pistol that can be used for just about everything from conceal carry to home defense to competition. The P250 will also hang around here but only because economy of scale allows it. Many of the same parts are used in both guns like frame, mags sights etc...

This is why the P320 will have strong market support now and in the future. Sig is banking on it. Sig is depending on it. They need the gun to sell and they need it to sell well on multiple fronts or the entire company will suffer IMHO. They have enough clout and enough volume ability that the aftermarket cannot ignore them and so far they haven't. The only bottle neck IMHO is Sig. Some of the modularity they have promised has been slow to hit the market. It is hard to get a conversion Kit. The one for the 45 ACP is still vaporware. I believe they are so focused on moving the metal and getting LEO contracts that the commerical world sees delays in these products. If you guys are going the conversion route for backups then make sure you get commitments on those kits upfront.

One thing about the conversion kit. If the idea is to come home take the control module out of your duty gun and drop it into the sub offduty gun everyday I think that would quickly become a PITA. It is relatively easy to do but you are basically going to detail strip the gun everyday.

The only real negatives to the gun are trigger slap, slide release and the movement of the slide upwards as the trigger is pulled and the gun is fired. The high bore axis is not a negative for me but is for some. The perceived recoil and flip might be a bit higher but nothing that training would not take care of. I don't shoot 40 any more but the 9mm and the 45ACP are both very controllable.

The trigger slap has been reported by some people. Sig change the trigger design. People are calling the newer version the "adverse trigger" and some people report that removes the issue.

The slide release is a Sig issue. People who shoot with a high hold like a 1911 or Glocks sometimes find that the slide does not lock back on the last round because they are riding the slide lock. There are now 2 versions of the slide lock. One is larger than the other. Depending on your hold this might or might not effect you.

The slide movement does not seem to effect accuracy but people find it annoying. Some think it messes with their sight picture post shot. The slide seems to move as the striker releases. It is a non-issue for me but other people dislike it.

In the end you could do much worse IMHO. I personally like it and have owned and shot pretty extensively Glock, Walther PPQ & Kahrs. I do not have extensive time on M&Ps.
 
I think WVsig has summed things up well and fairly. I will add a few comments.

I own a full-sized P320 in .45 ACP. I have shot a full-size P320 in .40 a couple of times. I have not shot a compact P320, but I have shot a compact P250 in 9mm. The P250 shares the same grip module with the P320 so apart from the trigger action, I would expect it to perform similarly.

For what it is worth, SIG calls what would ordinarily be called the "frame" the "grip module". SIG calls the fire control unit (FCU) the "frame". I have seen this terminology cause some confusion.

Unless SIG offers your department a better deal on the caliber X-change units than they offer the general public, they are not a very good deal. The units come with grip module (with magazine release), slide, barrel, recoil spring assembly, and one magazine. Basically everything except the FCU and the take down lever. I believe they also have Siglight night sights standard. Of course, they do not come with a hard case or holster, if that matters.

If one adds up the price of the caliber X-change kit and a couple of additional shorter magazines, you are about within $100 or so of the cost of a new pistol, at SIG's current retail pricing. The grip module exchanges are pretty cost effective, however. I have seen the grip modules sell for a little under $40 on sale so one could potentially buy a compact grip module and a couple of compact magazines for not much more than $100.

What size pistol does your department consider a duty pistol? The full-size P320 is a pretty big gun. SIG does offer the "carry" model, which has the "compact" slide and barrel but full-length grip module and magazines. This pistol has an overall length of 7.2" and a height of 5.5" with a 3.9" long barrel. I have read that SIG offered this model at the suggestion of law enforcement agencies. If that would be considered large enough for a duty pistol, then compact grip modules and magazines would allow it to be converted to a somewhat smaller carry pistol. Some have also used the subcompact grip modules with the compact uppers. The compact sized slide and barrel will overhang the subcompact grip module a little bit, but apparently this works fine and would allow a still more easily concealed pistol.

As for swapping grip modules it is quite a bit easier than what I would call a detail strip. Basically, you field strip the pistol, then pull out the take down lever, lift out the FCU, drop the FCU in the new grip module, then reinsert the take down lever. The first time or two you do this it is slightly tricky as levering out the FCU and reinserting the TDL is a bit "fiddly". But once you have done it a few times it is really pretty quick. However, I do agree that doing this twice daily would have the potential to become a bit of a PITA.

P320s come either with Siglight night sights or contrast sights stock. The night sights work well in the dark but the contrast sights are easier to pick up in all but very dim conditions. For me the medium size grip module of the full-size pistols are extremely comfortable, more comfortable for me than the HK VP9. The compact grip module is also comfortable, allowing 3 fingers below the trigger guard but it does squeeze the fingers of my moderately large hands together a little and I would be at risk of raising a blood blister with a rapid magazine change with the compact. The pistol points very naturally for me and both the full-size .40 S&W and the .45 ACP handle recoil very well. I consider the "high bore axis" a non-issue as long as the pistol absorbs recoil well.

The triggers are vastly better than any Glock I have shot. I have not shot a Walther PPQ but I have shot a HK VP9 and preferred the P320 trigger by a slim margin. I have never experienced trigger sting with the P320 (mine has the adverse trigger which I believe all the new manufacture P320s are shipping with). I did experience trigger sting with the VP9. The very positive and predictable reset of the P320 trigger is IMO its most positive feature.

The front of the P320 slide does seem to have a significant amount of vertical play with the pistol in battery. The slide is supported by only 4 small steel rails on the FCU so there is a good bit of slide and barrel sticking out in front of the forward pair of FCU rails. I have heard some complain of a change in sight picture while firing due to the front of the slide dipping slightly. I have looked for this when shooting my pistol and have not been able to appreciate any such phenomenon. This might vary from pistol to pistol.

I have the older style slide lock lever and take down lever. SIG has modified both in response to complaints owner's had regarding the thickness of the TDL and failure of slide lock with the original slide lock lever. The new TDL is much thinner. The new slide lock lever is not only thinner in its external portion, but now points forward instead of backwards. I have not had issues with either lever. I shoot with a Leatham/Enos thumb atop thumb grip with both thumbs pointing straight down range. My strong side thumb rests atop the base of my support thumb, so it doesn't contact the slide lock lever. My support hand thumb winds up below the TDL.

Aftermarket support for the P320 is certainly not what it is for the Glock and may never be. However, the P320 seems to be making quite a splash and rumor has it it is a leading candidate for both the FBI's new 9mm service pistol and the US Army's modular handgun system. And you have noted that it has been adopted by some sizable LEOs. If SIG wins either the FBI or Army contract I think aftermarket support will be more than ample. Actually, I think it will soon be so regardless, but I doubt magazines will ever be as inexpensive as Glock's are.
 
One thing about the conversion kit. If the idea is to come home take the control module out of your duty gun and drop it into the sub offduty gun everyday I think that would quickly become a PITA. It is relatively easy to do but you are basically going to detail strip the gun everyday.
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I think that is the core of it. Maybe the officers will buy their own FCG, but are they going to swap the configuration at the BEGINNING AND END of every shift? I would be very surprised if they do.

The benefits of this type system always seem to come down to the end user being able to make one version of the gun he/she likes more than most stock version, not being able switch it around with any regularity.
 
OP, you represent a relatively small group of 12 officers, what is everyone currently carrying? Do you have an in house armorer or will the officers be responsible for maintenance and repairs? What holsters and accessories does the group currently use? What is the timeframe for training with the selected firearm? The cost of the duty gun is only part of the consideration, training costs, maintenance and repair costs, and costs associated with replacement holsters and accessories should be factored into the evaluation.
 
JDBerg...current list is one M&P 40, me, one H&K USP 40, one xD 40, one Springfield 1911, one Shield and everyone else carries g22s, save for the Chief, who rotates from a 1911 to a g43 or g19. Chief is a Glock armorer, other then that, it's fend for yourself. I take care of my own.

Most of us use Safariland rigs, but there are also Serpas and Uncle Mike's Pro series of various retention. I have a triple retention Safariland with light for my rig.

As far as what the county will issue, I believe we will settle on Safariland, and officer choice of light bearing or not, and at least lvl II retention.

pblanc, I believe we will probably lean towards the Carry version as that's the closest in size to everyone's current pistol. And possibly an officer choice of compact or sub compact grip frames. Now, based on what you just stated, we could order Carry, and then just the grip frames in compact or sub, and not need the entire conversion kit, correct?

You and WVSIG have brought up an excellent point about the constant switching. And no .45 conversions available yet, correct?

Definitely got some things to discuss, and I really appreciate the responses and help.
 
Does anybody know if you can buy the different slide locks and frames that have the moldings around them? I have seen pictures of the new setup but can't find any info on it. I am used to shooting glocks and m&p's and always keep my thumbs high as possible and ride the slide stop majority of the time.
 
JDBerg...current list is one M&P 40, me, one H&K USP 40, one xD 40, one Springfield 1911, one Shield and everyone else carries g22s, save for the Chief, who rotates from a 1911 to a g43 or g19. Chief is a Glock armorer, other then that, it's fend for yourself. I take care of my own.
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Well considering the fact that most municipal police department budgets are cut back to the bone (a d@mn shame) it looks like most of the department already carries Glocks, your Chief is a Glock armorer, and the non-Glockers handle their own repairs.

From a purely functional standpoint a Glock would definitely work for the officers who do not currently carry them, and it would be relatively easy to train this subset of officers to shoot a Glock. Your Chief has the ability to armor the Glocks.

I can't think of a clear-cut cost / benefit justification for either going with either all M&P's or all Sig P320's unless you can convince the Chief or whoever approves this equipment budget, to conduct a range evaluation where each officer compares the Glock 22 and the M&P .40 S&W which are currently used as duty weapons, with the Chief's Sig P320. If the results of this range test evaluation shows a clear-cut preference for one gun over the other then you could use that as justification for approval of the budget for new duty guns.
 
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I'm new to the P320 and have one in compact 9MM. I have put 200 rounds thru it so far and pistol has been flawless, easy to strip, and easy to shoot well!
 
I absolutely love mine. Over the past year, I have become a P320 evangelist.

The compact is my EDC. The full size is my night stand gun.

I've beat on mine pretty hard. Keeps begging for more. I am fully confident that the P320 will be the next military side arm. Living in the Arizona desert, I get lots of experience with fine, gritty sand. This stuff loves to stop all kinds of guns. The VP9 did not play nice with it AT ALL. I have been unable to get the P320 to stop working when submitted to all kinds of sand in the action, slide rails, striker area.

12718365_10153967940547533_7202247269348267804_n.jpg
 
Mine is GREAT far superior to the Apexed M&Ps I own.The Sig P320 does not need aftermarket parts to function it is good to go right out of the box.
Consider the Carry size P320 full sized grip with a compact slide.
The slide release is a non issue with the new style slide release.As is the claimed high bore axis problem.
The P320 is the way to go.
 
pblanc, I believe we will probably lean towards the Carry version as that's the closest in size to everyone's current pistol. And possibly an officer choice of compact or sub compact grip frames. Now, based on what you just stated, we could order Carry, and then just the grip frames in compact or sub, and not need the entire conversion kit, correct?

You and WVSIG have brought up an excellent point about the constant switching. And no .45 conversions available yet, correct?
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Yes, the grip module on the "carry" model P320 is the same as that on the full-size model except that it has a shorter "dust cover" and rail so that it ends flush with the compact slide.

The P320 .45 ACP fire control unit is not compatible with the other calibers. Unless SIG redesigns the .45 FCU it will not be possible to buy a caliber X-change kit for 9mm, .40 S&W, or .357 SIG if you have a P320 45 (or vice versa). SIG has promised caliber exchange kits to convert a full-size .45 to a compact and has also promised a subcompact P320 .45 but thus far both are vaporware.
 
Thanks again everyone. Uncle Malice, that's one heckuva an endorsement! Love the pic, but it begs the question...is that the factory barrel? Or is the color due to sand/dust/shooting?
And is that an Apex flat trigger I spy? If it is, was it needed? Did it improve the trigger?

I'm going to be speaking with the Chief on Tuesday, as we are the two involved with determining which platform we would prefer, with the Sheriff taking our recommendations and either approving or denying it. Chief, who has an FFL, will present the pricing.

It seems as though the Sig is definitely a solid choice, and one we'll take into serious consideration. A 3 way shoot off just might be in order, as JDBERG mentioned, and who wouldn't be stoked for that?
 
Thanks again everyone. Uncle Malice, that's one heckuva an endorsement! Love the pic, but it begs the question...is that the factory barrel? Or is the color due to sand/dust/shooting?
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It is the factory barrel, I just had it Titanium Nitride coated. It's a surface hardening finish, originally used on drill bits and stuff. If you've ever seen gold colored drill bits, they have the coating. So yes, it is the gold color that it appears in the picture.

I like it. I don't really know if it makes a lot of difference. When I first got it, I thought it was going to be a super slick, self-lubricating coating, kind of like Robar NP3, but that's not the case. It's more of a matte finish and just makes it more wear resistant.

But yes, I am really, really happy with the P320 platform. Especially with the recent update to the flat take down lever and the smaller slide stop. I feel that it perfectly rounded out the platform.

I am looking to pick up the subcompact 9mm, the full size 45, and the P320RX 9mm once it's available. The RX was announced at SHOT Show and has the slide pre-milled with a Sig Romero optic mounted right from the factory.

Several people mentioned muzzle flip, but it's been a total non-issue for me - and most other shooters. The P320 is gaining traction pretty quickly in the competition circuit. Bruce Gray won the Flagler cup last year with his P320. He competed in Bianchi cup, but I think he took like 3rd or 4th place. You can search on YouTube for videos of the P320 being used in competition and it performs very well.

I think you'd be happy with the gun.
 
Does anybody know if you can buy the different slide locks and frames that have the moldings around them? I have seen pictures of the new setup but can't find any info on it. I am used to shooting glocks and m&p's and always keep my thumbs high as possible and ride the slide stop majority of the time.
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I believe that the new production P320s are shipping with the new take down lever, new slide stop lever, and the new grip module with the 3 sided molding surrounding the slide stop lever.

This photo shows the new TDL, slide stop lever, and grip module:

http://www.recoilsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/IMG_0502-e1450452109801.jpg

The original TDL had a fairly prominent shelf at the bottom edge that stuck out a good bit and interfered with some shooters support hand thumb. The new slide stop lever has also been thinned down considerably in its external portion and the free end of the lever now points forward instead of back like the original. The new grip modules have the molding surrounding the bottom, front, and back of the slide stop lever so as to make accidental engagement less likely.

It may be that there is some new old stock P320s that still have either the older slide stop lever, TDL, or both.
 
JDBerg makes asked a great question and makes a lot of sense.

So, 2/3 of the unit already carries 40 SW Glocks and you have an in house armorer? Since Glocks are pretty much 100% drop-in parts for fixes that covers pretty much everything.

From an enthusiasts perspective I can see why you might want to go with a higher dollar or more refined design, but it doesn't look like it would make financial sense to me. As already pointed out, training is a big part of the cost. My guess is the officers who carry Glocks aren't all that interested in firearms and aren't going to pursue much training on their own. I'd say a change runs a good chance of taking them away from something they are familiar and comfortable with and leaving them with something they might not like. Those who shoot a lot can likely make the adjustment to Glocks pretty easily.
 
I have the P320 carry. It has become my favorite all around 9MM, edging out my Glocks.

In my considered opinion, you would be wise to choose the SIG over the M&P or the Glock.
SIG quality is legendary.
 
Once again, I am impressed by the quality of answers given by "The Firing Line" forum users! Thank you all so much! I learn so much when I am here! :)
 
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