Sig P225--Likes 147gr loads, are these ok?
- Thread starter JRiggs
- Start date
I recall reading that the Winchester Silvertip 147gr subsonic 9mm was one of the better 147gr 9mms.
I understand expansion for this particular load is reliable, thus minimizing over penetration (a common 147gr plague).
The energy still isn't up to 115gr or 124gr levels, but if your P225 functions best with these loads, you they will perform well and all will be peachy.
I understand expansion for this particular load is reliable, thus minimizing over penetration (a common 147gr plague).
The energy still isn't up to 115gr or 124gr levels, but if your P225 functions best with these loads, you they will perform well and all will be peachy.
Herr Walther
New member
I'm picking up my NIB Sig-Sauer P225 Sunday. I've always wanted one.
I'll be carrying 124gr Hydra-Shok or Golden Saber. I've never been too crazy about the 147gr round in my 9mm's
I'll be carrying 124gr Hydra-Shok or Golden Saber. I've never been too crazy about the 147gr round in my 9mm's
chioce. (I wasn't going to include the pun, but I couldn't resist.
)I keep mine loaded with Federal Classic 147gr hollow points.
If I'm gonna be forced into fighting a bear with a baseball bat, I'm gonna choose the biggest baseball bat I can find to hit it with.
It ain't scientific, but it seems like good logic.
147gr is the biggest baseball bat in the 9mm caliber.
Seems like a good choice to me.
If I'm gonna be forced into fighting a bear with a baseball bat, I'm gonna choose the biggest baseball bat I can find to hit it with.
It ain't scientific, but it seems like good logic.
147gr is the biggest baseball bat in the 9mm caliber.
Seems like a good choice to me.
don't shoot it's me
New member
I carry the winchester sxt 147 grain in my P7....a lot of agencies rave about it.....great expansion and good penetration....it's also faster than the old 147 black talon.....
juliet charley
New member
The military picked the 147-grain JHP Federal Classic 9MS for use in the M11 (the Sig P228--your 225's double column brother). The San Diego PD, Los Angeles PD and Los Angeles SO are all satisfied with it. At 12 to 14 inches penetration and +.60 expansion, accurate, easy shooting and easy on the weapon, you can't go wrong (particularly if your pistol "likes" it).
George Helser
New member
JRiggs,
If your objective is self defense, 147 gr bullets in 9x19 are a very poor choice. 147 gr bullets are subsonic for shooting in a suppressed handgun. 147 gr bullets are FAR less powerful than full power 9x19 in 115 gr and 124 gr. AND the subsonic velocity of 147 gr bullets offers little potential for expansion compared to much faster 115 & 124 gr bullets.
The hot ticket with commercial ammo in 9x19 for power & stopping seems to be Corbon 115 Gr +P ammo. The Corbon ammo has an additional benefit of nearly zero flash at night.
Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
P.S. I am puzzled by the number of contributors on this forum who somehow “feel” the heaviest bullet in a caliber is the most effective. I think they might “feel” the heaviest bullet is the most powerful. The heaviest bullet available in many calibers is way off the optimum, giving LOW power, POOR expansion, WEAK stopping and often DANGEROUS over-penetration for lack of expansion.
If your objective is self defense, 147 gr bullets in 9x19 are a very poor choice. 147 gr bullets are subsonic for shooting in a suppressed handgun. 147 gr bullets are FAR less powerful than full power 9x19 in 115 gr and 124 gr. AND the subsonic velocity of 147 gr bullets offers little potential for expansion compared to much faster 115 & 124 gr bullets.
The hot ticket with commercial ammo in 9x19 for power & stopping seems to be Corbon 115 Gr +P ammo. The Corbon ammo has an additional benefit of nearly zero flash at night.
Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
P.S. I am puzzled by the number of contributors on this forum who somehow “feel” the heaviest bullet in a caliber is the most effective. I think they might “feel” the heaviest bullet is the most powerful. The heaviest bullet available in many calibers is way off the optimum, giving LOW power, POOR expansion, WEAK stopping and often DANGEROUS over-penetration for lack of expansion.
juliet charley
New member
Please note that an incredibly large number of highly qualified people who rely on handguns for self-defence on a daily basis disagree with George.
US Military Law Enforcement (AFOSI, CID, NIS, etc.)--not Special Ops or others who might need or use a "suppressed" ammo.
The San Diego PD
The Los Angeles PD
The Los Angeles PD
The Indiana SP
The IWBA (whose criteria for handgun cartridge selection is generally accepted by LE and has been adopted by major manufacturers for their LE ammo).
Whether George likes to admit it or not, the 147-grain JHPs are working and working well for LE. (That's not to say that other rounds including the 124-grain +P JHPs are not working as well.)
Here's a quote from tacticalforums.com about the Cor-Bons George recommends so highly (and soundly been rejected by LE):
US Military Law Enforcement (AFOSI, CID, NIS, etc.)--not Special Ops or others who might need or use a "suppressed" ammo.
The San Diego PD
The Los Angeles PD
The Los Angeles PD
The Indiana SP
The IWBA (whose criteria for handgun cartridge selection is generally accepted by LE and has been adopted by major manufacturers for their LE ammo).
Whether George likes to admit it or not, the 147-grain JHPs are working and working well for LE. (That's not to say that other rounds including the 124-grain +P JHPs are not working as well.)
Here's a quote from tacticalforums.com about the Cor-Bons George recommends so highly (and soundly been rejected by LE):
George Helser
New member
juliet,
I have read a lot of articles about the poor performance of 147 gr ammo in 9x19. (Which I would expect since it has lower power and lower potential for expansion than 115 or 125 gr bullets.)
For example:
American Handgunner, NOV/DEC 1998 Page 16 “NYPD GOES ISP”
... The round selected was the Remington 115 gr +P+ at 1300 fps.
...The department studied the performance of the older ammo with growing alarm.
... Six bystanders in one two year period were hit by subsonic 147 gr JHPs fired by
transit officers ... that had gone through an object first.
... The 115 gr 9mm +P+ is the cartridge the Illinois State Police made famous. It is probably the most devastating manstopper in its caliber. Secret Service uses the exact same Remington +P+ that NYPD adopted. They are sure the city’s concern that overpenetration of bullets be minimized while stopping power is maximized.
Also reference Gun Tests AUG 96 Performance Test: 9mm Handgun Ammunition.
Fired rounds into fabric covered gelatin. They rated the Winchester Supreme 147 gr SXT as being unsatisfactory because its low velocity did not cause bullet expansion and the low power. They rated the Corbon 115gr 1350 fps as the best,
making a wound like a 44 magnum.
Here are some numbers from corbon.com and federalcartridge.com
CORBON 9x19
115 gr @ 1350 fps with 466 ft/lbs
125 gr @ 1250 fps with 434 ft/lbs
Hydra-Shok 9x19
124 gr @ 1120 fps with 345 ft/lbs
147 gr @ 1000 fps with 325 ft/lbs
It is hard for me to accept that a slower, less powerful 9mm bullet is more effective than a faster more powerful bullet of the same caliber. I am afraid some people equate a heavier bullet to higher power and that is a mistake with 147 gr in 9x19.
Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
P.S. The Corbon 115gr ammo I tested has nearly zero flash at night. It is quite remarkable.
I have read a lot of articles about the poor performance of 147 gr ammo in 9x19. (Which I would expect since it has lower power and lower potential for expansion than 115 or 125 gr bullets.)
For example:
American Handgunner, NOV/DEC 1998 Page 16 “NYPD GOES ISP”
... The round selected was the Remington 115 gr +P+ at 1300 fps.
...The department studied the performance of the older ammo with growing alarm.
... Six bystanders in one two year period were hit by subsonic 147 gr JHPs fired by
transit officers ... that had gone through an object first.
... The 115 gr 9mm +P+ is the cartridge the Illinois State Police made famous. It is probably the most devastating manstopper in its caliber. Secret Service uses the exact same Remington +P+ that NYPD adopted. They are sure the city’s concern that overpenetration of bullets be minimized while stopping power is maximized.
Also reference Gun Tests AUG 96 Performance Test: 9mm Handgun Ammunition.
Fired rounds into fabric covered gelatin. They rated the Winchester Supreme 147 gr SXT as being unsatisfactory because its low velocity did not cause bullet expansion and the low power. They rated the Corbon 115gr 1350 fps as the best,
making a wound like a 44 magnum.
Here are some numbers from corbon.com and federalcartridge.com
CORBON 9x19
115 gr @ 1350 fps with 466 ft/lbs
125 gr @ 1250 fps with 434 ft/lbs
Hydra-Shok 9x19
124 gr @ 1120 fps with 345 ft/lbs
147 gr @ 1000 fps with 325 ft/lbs
It is hard for me to accept that a slower, less powerful 9mm bullet is more effective than a faster more powerful bullet of the same caliber. I am afraid some people equate a heavier bullet to higher power and that is a mistake with 147 gr in 9x19.
Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
P.S. The Corbon 115gr ammo I tested has nearly zero flash at night. It is quite remarkable.
Hmm... San Diego PD, Los Angeles PD, Los Angeles SO all use 147 gr 9mm.
You'd think if that wasn't the best tested choice that they'd choose something else. So far that particular load has been working just fine. It should be noted that LASD went from a 115gr TO the 147gr because of LACK of penetration.
You'd think if that wasn't the best tested choice that they'd choose something else. So far that particular load has been working just fine. It should be noted that LASD went from a 115gr TO the 147gr because of LACK of penetration.
juliet charley
New member
George -
You seem confused. There is no direct, one-to-one linear correlation between bullet effectiveness and "energy." Bullet effectiveness is determined by several factors of which energy one (and only a minor one at that). Faster does not necessarily equal more powerful (i.e., effective). Also, there is no direct correlation to subsonic ammunition and suppressed weapons (except suppressed weapons required subsonic ammuniton for maximum suppression), but subsonic ammunition is not necessarily made for use in subsonic weapons.
I think if you check, you will find NYPD switched to the 124-grain GDHP--one of the best penetrating 9 mm JHPs. While you are checking your "facts," you will also discover the USSS using the 357 Sig--of which one of the design factors is increased penetration. So far as I know, both rounds, even though 9 mm, meet the IWBA Protocol for penetration. When the Illinois SP switched to the .40 S&W one of the reasons cited was the +P+ ammunition was very hard on the weapons (and they pointedly did NOT switch to the 135-grain .40 S&W--the high energy equivalent). When the Indiana SP switched to the .40 S&W, they stated, it was just an upgrade and not ammunition (performance) driven.
I think, again one you start checking your "facts," you will find that there has been tremendous strides in ammunition development of the last several years, and the 147-grain rounds have benefitted tremendously from this development. The early 147-grain rounds were nothing to right home about, but the current crop is probably as good as the self-defence rounds in that calibre. In other words, the judge the 147-grain ammunition available in 2001 by that available in 1996 is foolish.
You seem confused. There is no direct, one-to-one linear correlation between bullet effectiveness and "energy." Bullet effectiveness is determined by several factors of which energy one (and only a minor one at that). Faster does not necessarily equal more powerful (i.e., effective). Also, there is no direct correlation to subsonic ammunition and suppressed weapons (except suppressed weapons required subsonic ammuniton for maximum suppression), but subsonic ammunition is not necessarily made for use in subsonic weapons.
I think if you check, you will find NYPD switched to the 124-grain GDHP--one of the best penetrating 9 mm JHPs. While you are checking your "facts," you will also discover the USSS using the 357 Sig--of which one of the design factors is increased penetration. So far as I know, both rounds, even though 9 mm, meet the IWBA Protocol for penetration. When the Illinois SP switched to the .40 S&W one of the reasons cited was the +P+ ammunition was very hard on the weapons (and they pointedly did NOT switch to the 135-grain .40 S&W--the high energy equivalent). When the Indiana SP switched to the .40 S&W, they stated, it was just an upgrade and not ammunition (performance) driven.
I think, again one you start checking your "facts," you will find that there has been tremendous strides in ammunition development of the last several years, and the 147-grain rounds have benefitted tremendously from this development. The early 147-grain rounds were nothing to right home about, but the current crop is probably as good as the self-defence rounds in that calibre. In other words, the judge the 147-grain ammunition available in 2001 by that available in 1996 is foolish.
don't shoot it's me
New member
I heard all the major ammo makers are discontimuing the 147 grain round based on George's post. I also sent a copy of his post to all the major law enforcemnt agencies and they immediately threw out their supply of 147 grain rounds. In addition, all the felons that have been put down by them are confessing in seances that it was their head hitting the cement, and not the poorly performing 147 grainer round that did them in....
I tried to point out the error the last time George posted, this exact same post, but obviously no one was paying attention.
::ahem:: the bullets went through OBJECTS. Were these objects PEOPLE? Or were they things like the rails in the subway, or the subway doors, or the subway glass. The question isn't are the 147's perfect, it's are they better than the competition. I don't about ya'll, but I was under the impression that Cor Bon's bullets went through glass, and subway doors. Unless we're referring to the Glazer's.
As far as what George has read... I've read that Bat-Boy joined the army, doesn't mean I believe in Bat-Boy, or that he joined the Army.
As far as what Evan Marshall says, or has said, first off he's a real nice guy. Second off he said, and I quote (from his post on his forum)
" both lapd and chicago pd are using it [Win 147 SXT] and reporting good results. NYPD is using Speer 124gr +p with good results and Orlando has gone from Win 147gr to Win 127gr jhp +p+ and are extremelt pleased with the improvement. Like everything else, its alot more complex that [sic] we care for it to be."
and also
" I think we need to remember that the same technology that has been applied to bonded 124gr bullets has been applied to 147gr bonded bullets. Are the current 147gr better than the earlier version-absolutely. Is that enough-I'm not convinced."
All that said, he's packing 230gr HydraShocks (in his main gun). Those same no-energy 230gr bullets someone was berating a while ago.
I'm gonna wrap this up with some questions for ya'll to ponder. Anytime someone tells you the story of a guy who was shot, and didn't stop on the spot. Ask yourself:
Would it have mattered if he was shot (in the same spot) with a shotgun slug? if no, then the problem can be chalked up to bad shot placement.
Would the bullet expanding to a slightly larger diameter have changed anything?
Would the bullet penetrating a little deeper have changed anything?
Have you EVER heard of ANY account where a 147gr 9mm, 180gr .40, or 230gr .45 JHP exited the body, after passing through structures sufficient to stop a lighter weight (higher velocity) bullet?
Things to ponder. Things to ponder.
-Morgan
::ahem:: the bullets went through OBJECTS. Were these objects PEOPLE? Or were they things like the rails in the subway, or the subway doors, or the subway glass. The question isn't are the 147's perfect, it's are they better than the competition. I don't about ya'll, but I was under the impression that Cor Bon's bullets went through glass, and subway doors. Unless we're referring to the Glazer's.
As far as what George has read... I've read that Bat-Boy joined the army, doesn't mean I believe in Bat-Boy, or that he joined the Army.
As far as what Evan Marshall says, or has said, first off he's a real nice guy. Second off he said, and I quote (from his post on his forum)
" both lapd and chicago pd are using it [Win 147 SXT] and reporting good results. NYPD is using Speer 124gr +p with good results and Orlando has gone from Win 147gr to Win 127gr jhp +p+ and are extremelt pleased with the improvement. Like everything else, its alot more complex that [sic] we care for it to be."
and also
" I think we need to remember that the same technology that has been applied to bonded 124gr bullets has been applied to 147gr bonded bullets. Are the current 147gr better than the earlier version-absolutely. Is that enough-I'm not convinced."
All that said, he's packing 230gr HydraShocks (in his main gun). Those same no-energy 230gr bullets someone was berating a while ago.
I'm gonna wrap this up with some questions for ya'll to ponder. Anytime someone tells you the story of a guy who was shot, and didn't stop on the spot. Ask yourself:
Would it have mattered if he was shot (in the same spot) with a shotgun slug? if no, then the problem can be chalked up to bad shot placement.
Would the bullet expanding to a slightly larger diameter have changed anything?
Would the bullet penetrating a little deeper have changed anything?
Have you EVER heard of ANY account where a 147gr 9mm, 180gr .40, or 230gr .45 JHP exited the body, after passing through structures sufficient to stop a lighter weight (higher velocity) bullet?
Things to ponder. Things to ponder.
-Morgan
Sorry me again. More direct quoting here once again Evan Marshal over on his board.
"I've seen Gold Saber and Gold Dot and SXT 147's that have actually and routinely expanded in soft, human tissue."
He still likes 115's better, and seems partial to the PowerMax 147's. But he's apparently seen those slow moving never-expanding 147's expand routinely.
I think this is the end of the whole series of remarks by folks who insist the 147's don't expand in real people.
http://pub58.ezboard.com/fthestoppingpowercommunityfrm1.showMessage?topicID=349.topic
-Morgan
"I've seen Gold Saber and Gold Dot and SXT 147's that have actually and routinely expanded in soft, human tissue."
He still likes 115's better, and seems partial to the PowerMax 147's. But he's apparently seen those slow moving never-expanding 147's expand routinely.
I think this is the end of the whole series of remarks by folks who insist the 147's don't expand in real people.
http://pub58.ezboard.com/fthestoppingpowercommunityfrm1.showMessage?topicID=349.topic
-Morgan
George Helser
New member
Sorry but I have been traveling a lot lately and have not had a lot of time to focus on educating people about the physics related to self defense ammo.
OK, let’s assume 147 gr ammo in 9x19 has progressed from being a low power, low expanding round which tended to over penetrate its target making it the worst choice for CCW. We now have a high powered 147 gr bullet in 9x19 which gives brilliant
expansion and does not exit the target. (If it exits the target, it failed to use all its energy to disable the target.) It also has virtually zero flash at night. What is the brand of this ammo? What is the actual Muzzle Velocity in your arm?
Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona (in sunny Nevada this week)
OK, let’s assume 147 gr ammo in 9x19 has progressed from being a low power, low expanding round which tended to over penetrate its target making it the worst choice for CCW. We now have a high powered 147 gr bullet in 9x19 which gives brilliant
expansion and does not exit the target. (If it exits the target, it failed to use all its energy to disable the target.) It also has virtually zero flash at night. What is the brand of this ammo? What is the actual Muzzle Velocity in your arm?
Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona (in sunny Nevada this week)