Sig P220 or 1911?
- Thread starter David Ramsey
- Start date
Wild Romanian
Moderator
Boy I have read some ridiculouse statements in my life but that really takes the cake. I have shot Colt 1911's all my life and I have never had a problem with reliability. I think 100 years of 1911 production and along with them being used in every major and minor conflict the U.S. has gotten itself into proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
I have even shot G.I. 1911's that would even feed quite a few different hollow point designs even though they were orginally designed for ball ammo and the newer 1911's are all throated that come from the factory.
I think the problem comes from the shoddily manufactured clones of the 1911. Buy a quality gun that is true to the original design and it will go on working practically forever. I have not found that to be true with the new high tech .45's I have owned and still own.W.R.
Wild Romanian
Moderator
I think one thing that should be mentioned about the P220 is the design of the main spring and its strut. It is located under the plastic grips and hangs naked without any protection whatsoever. Drop this gun on its grips and when they break the strut will then be either bent or broken putting the gun out of order immediately.
Contrast this to the steel mainspring housing on a quality 1911. The mainspring is located inside the steel housing and will survive the nastiest of falls.
The P220's sheet metal roll pins are not as sturdy or as durable as the solid steel pins of the 1911. In industry I have seen sheet metal roll pins rust completely through in a matter of days when exposed to extreme conditions of corrosion. Sheet metal roll pins break far more often than sold steel pins. As a matter of fact Sig had to use a double sheet metal roll pin through the breach block of the pistol. What does that tell you?
The P220 is not strippable to the bare frame in the field as the 1911 is.
The P220 is made up largely of stamped sheet metal parts. The original 1911's are made of forged steel parts.
The P220 is top heavy because of its aluminum frame and kicks twice as hard as the 1911 making it way less controllable in rapid fire.
The P220 user must fight two different trigger pulls under stress . Contrast this to the same single action pull shot after shot of the 1911. First round hit probability is astronomically higher.
The P220's aluminum frame because of its very composition can never outlast the all steel frame of th 1911 or take the abuse the steel 1911 can.
The P220's dual controls are way to close together making it a high probability that some people under stress (Like myself) often hit the wrong lever at the wrong time.
The P220's cross hatch pattern magazine construction have bin known to come apart. Constrast this to the solid welded seem of an original 1911 magazine.
The only good thing I can say about the P220 is that the one I own even though it has not been as reliable as my 1911's is that it does have a good trigger pull and is an accurate handgun.
The Sig Sauer series of handguns were designed from their inseption to be made quicker and cheaper than their competitors, not better. They in no way can be placed in the same class as a quality built 1911. W.R.
W.R.
Contrast this to the steel mainspring housing on a quality 1911. The mainspring is located inside the steel housing and will survive the nastiest of falls.
The P220's sheet metal roll pins are not as sturdy or as durable as the solid steel pins of the 1911. In industry I have seen sheet metal roll pins rust completely through in a matter of days when exposed to extreme conditions of corrosion. Sheet metal roll pins break far more often than sold steel pins. As a matter of fact Sig had to use a double sheet metal roll pin through the breach block of the pistol. What does that tell you?
The P220 is not strippable to the bare frame in the field as the 1911 is.
The P220 is made up largely of stamped sheet metal parts. The original 1911's are made of forged steel parts.
The P220 is top heavy because of its aluminum frame and kicks twice as hard as the 1911 making it way less controllable in rapid fire.
The P220 user must fight two different trigger pulls under stress . Contrast this to the same single action pull shot after shot of the 1911. First round hit probability is astronomically higher.
The P220's aluminum frame because of its very composition can never outlast the all steel frame of th 1911 or take the abuse the steel 1911 can.
The P220's dual controls are way to close together making it a high probability that some people under stress (Like myself) often hit the wrong lever at the wrong time.
The P220's cross hatch pattern magazine construction have bin known to come apart. Constrast this to the solid welded seem of an original 1911 magazine.
The only good thing I can say about the P220 is that the one I own even though it has not been as reliable as my 1911's is that it does have a good trigger pull and is an accurate handgun.
The Sig Sauer series of handguns were designed from their inseption to be made quicker and cheaper than their competitors, not better. They in no way can be placed in the same class as a quality built 1911. W.R.
W.R.
Steve in PA
New member
Everyone knows that a 1911 typically needs alot of work to remain accurate......bushings, links......etc. , thats why you see a ton of aftermarket parts for them. They are a good pistol, I do like them and have shot quite a few of them. If I had my druthers I'd be adding one, probably a 1991A1 to my line up.
Incidently I took my P220 to the range this weekend and it shoots great. It is extremely accurate, handles very nice. I will say that I don't like the slide lock on the Sigs, just something a shooter will have to get used to just as every pistol has something that needs to get used to.
Incidently I took my P220 to the range this weekend and it shoots great. It is extremely accurate, handles very nice. I will say that I don't like the slide lock on the Sigs, just something a shooter will have to get used to just as every pistol has something that needs to get used to.
yeah but...
Gents,
Everybody loves old slabsides, but the SIG is probably going to be a better combat gun. I'll bet real $$$ that you are much more likely to have to "correct" problems with a 1911 than with a 220. The beauty of the SIGs are that they are "bet your ass" guns. You can trust that a SIG, fresh out of the plastic box, is going to work. 1911s, generally, have no where near this level of trustworthiness. And I'm not just talking about Chuck Daley garbage, I'm talking about high $$$ Colts and Springfields. OTOH, I have never owned or even shot a Baer or Wilson so I can't speak for them--but at $1400 and up they better be pretty good. Also, the single-action vs. double action argument is strictly a matter of taste--and possibly religion. Other considerations such as feeding reliability, parts breakage and accuracy also, generally, favor the SIG. The only real drawback to the SIG design is the 90 or so FPS your going to loose with its shorter barrel vs. a govt model.
GHB
GLOCK: :barf:
Gents,
Everybody loves old slabsides, but the SIG is probably going to be a better combat gun. I'll bet real $$$ that you are much more likely to have to "correct" problems with a 1911 than with a 220. The beauty of the SIGs are that they are "bet your ass" guns. You can trust that a SIG, fresh out of the plastic box, is going to work. 1911s, generally, have no where near this level of trustworthiness. And I'm not just talking about Chuck Daley garbage, I'm talking about high $$$ Colts and Springfields. OTOH, I have never owned or even shot a Baer or Wilson so I can't speak for them--but at $1400 and up they better be pretty good. Also, the single-action vs. double action argument is strictly a matter of taste--and possibly religion. Other considerations such as feeding reliability, parts breakage and accuracy also, generally, favor the SIG. The only real drawback to the SIG design is the 90 or so FPS your going to loose with its shorter barrel vs. a govt model.
GHB
GLOCK: :barf:
lonegunman
New member
1911 versus Sig "out of the box" reliablity is a statistical argument and nothing more.
If I get a bad 1911 or Sig, I am either going to get it fixed or get rid of it.
Lets just say that 5% of 1911s are unreliable and only 1% of Sigs are. So what? My 1911 isnt going to be one of the 5%, and my Sig isnt going to be in the 1%.
If you have a 100% reliable 1911, it doesnt matter if all the others in the world are a POS, yours is still 100%.
You also have to remember that 1911s are made by numerous manufacturers, with varying degrees of quality control. Even Colt has had quality issues due to their financial instablity. I bet if you compared Springfield and Kimbers to Sigs, the reliability is going to be about the same.
The main reason I am not a big Sig fan is because of the DA/SA mechanism. Why anyone would choose to limit themselves with that action type is beyond me, but to each his own, I suppose.
If I get a bad 1911 or Sig, I am either going to get it fixed or get rid of it.
Lets just say that 5% of 1911s are unreliable and only 1% of Sigs are. So what? My 1911 isnt going to be one of the 5%, and my Sig isnt going to be in the 1%.
If you have a 100% reliable 1911, it doesnt matter if all the others in the world are a POS, yours is still 100%.
You also have to remember that 1911s are made by numerous manufacturers, with varying degrees of quality control. Even Colt has had quality issues due to their financial instablity. I bet if you compared Springfield and Kimbers to Sigs, the reliability is going to be about the same.
The main reason I am not a big Sig fan is because of the DA/SA mechanism. Why anyone would choose to limit themselves with that action type is beyond me, but to each his own, I suppose.
Glock_Racer
New member
get the Kimber
Lonegunman,
Your "statistical" argument is not very convincing. The problem with it is that works equally well for Lorcins: "So what if only 1 in 270 Lorcins is reliable, if you happen to have a good one?" The problem is, there is a massive difference between a 1 in 20 chance of having a defect and 1 in 100. Further, I would bet that the real numbers are a lot further apart. I would bet that less than 1 in 100 SIGs have a problem out of the box. I would also bet that closer to 1 in 10 1911s do (especially if you include Charles Daleys and the other dogs). And these are all "out of the box" problems--excluding all the troubles that the guns have on the second day forward. I'm sorry, but if you want a really excellent 1911 it is going to cost you quite a bit more than a SIG 220.
If you don't like da/sa then you don't like it. Personally, I like them both. I like Da/sa, SA, DAO and P7 "squeeze cockers." I absolutely can't stand "safe action" type pistols (Glock, Sigma...). Everybody has their own thing.
Your "statistical" argument is not very convincing. The problem with it is that works equally well for Lorcins: "So what if only 1 in 270 Lorcins is reliable, if you happen to have a good one?" The problem is, there is a massive difference between a 1 in 20 chance of having a defect and 1 in 100. Further, I would bet that the real numbers are a lot further apart. I would bet that less than 1 in 100 SIGs have a problem out of the box. I would also bet that closer to 1 in 10 1911s do (especially if you include Charles Daleys and the other dogs). And these are all "out of the box" problems--excluding all the troubles that the guns have on the second day forward. I'm sorry, but if you want a really excellent 1911 it is going to cost you quite a bit more than a SIG 220.
If you don't like da/sa then you don't like it. Personally, I like them both. I like Da/sa, SA, DAO and P7 "squeeze cockers." I absolutely can't stand "safe action" type pistols (Glock, Sigma...). Everybody has their own thing.
lonegunman
New member
Yes, my argument works equally well for any pistol, including Lorcins.
So?
a 100% reliable Lorcin (assuming such an oddity exists) is still 100% reliable , right?
And if your "1 in 10" statistic is correct, I must be very lucky because I have owned no less than 5 1911 (Colts, Kimbers, Springfields) that have been 100% reliable.
I think 1911s often get a bad rep. Most of that though is based on either old, worn out guns, or those made by a cheap manufacturer.
If Charles Daly built Sig style autos, do you still think they would be as reliable as the real thing?
So?
a 100% reliable Lorcin (assuming such an oddity exists) is still 100% reliable , right?
And if your "1 in 10" statistic is correct, I must be very lucky because I have owned no less than 5 1911 (Colts, Kimbers, Springfields) that have been 100% reliable.
I think 1911s often get a bad rep. Most of that though is based on either old, worn out guns, or those made by a cheap manufacturer.
If Charles Daly built Sig style autos, do you still think they would be as reliable as the real thing?
Lonegunman,
My point is that you are much more likely to get a flawed weapon if you buy a 1911. He was asking which of the two to buy. I consider reliability to be the most important characteristic a gun can have. Sigs have it in spades, 1911s simply do not. I've never understood how someone could pay $600+ for a 1911 knowing that he was going to have to send it to the gunplumber to get it to work right.You say you have never had any trouble out of your five 1911s. I believe you---but I think anyone who is honest will say that you are one extremely lucky guy. You say that even if your gun has a problem you'll fix it--thats great---if you get a chance to fix it. I prefer to buy a gun that I know was done right from the begining. I'm not going to bet my life on 1 in 20.
Glocks:barf:
My point is that you are much more likely to get a flawed weapon if you buy a 1911. He was asking which of the two to buy. I consider reliability to be the most important characteristic a gun can have. Sigs have it in spades, 1911s simply do not. I've never understood how someone could pay $600+ for a 1911 knowing that he was going to have to send it to the gunplumber to get it to work right.You say you have never had any trouble out of your five 1911s. I believe you---but I think anyone who is honest will say that you are one extremely lucky guy. You say that even if your gun has a problem you'll fix it--thats great---if you get a chance to fix it. I prefer to buy a gun that I know was done right from the begining. I'm not going to bet my life on 1 in 20.
Glocks:barf:
Sigs makes one of the if not, the best pistols IMHO no rebuttles here!!! Nothing like it out of the box and this is why there is limited mods you can do to it cause it is not needed! If you want an accurate reliable quality gun, get the SiG. If you want an oridnary gun that you can modify in many ways and add on some custom stuff, get the 1911. Buying a Sig is like buying a nice fast reliable quality car like a Porsche or BMW. Or you can get the other stuff which would be like a Toyota or Ford where there are so much stuff you can do to it make it fancy and fast but will not be the same as the German cars mentioned, lol!
I have owned and shot a whole bunch of 45acp pistols. My opinion? If you have never shot and became accustomed to a 1911A1 you will be more than happy with a Sig P220, Glock 21 or 30, Ruger P90 or P97, or a S&W. Once you become familiar with a 1911A1 there is nothing better. The better 1911A1s require very little or no smithing to function well. 1911A1 owners tend to become perfectionists/individualists and this leads our desire for improvements. Regards, Richard
I owned both a Kimber Custom Classic and a Sig P220 for several years. Recently I sold the 220 because it was never being used. The Sig is a very nicely built pistol but it is too large for comfortable concealed carry, has no better ergonomics than the 1911 and is DA/SA. In the end, though, I just found I was much more accurate with the 1911 than with any of the other pistols (Sig, Glock) I own. Yes, the full-size Kimber is a bit heavy and large, but its thinner which makes concealment easier and in the commander-size versions with the aluminum frames it just kicks the Sig all over the room.
David Ramsey
New member
Bought the Kimber Target Stainless. Beautiful gun.
Walt Sherrill
New member
I've had a nicely tuned P-220 and still have a custom 1911.
If you can find a reliable 1911, not that hard really, the triggers are so much better than anything else, its hard to go with a DA SIG.
But the SIGs are durable and reliable. I prefer the 1911, and could never really master the SIG DA to SA transition. Try them both and then decide.
If you can find a reliable 1911, not that hard really, the triggers are so much better than anything else, its hard to go with a DA SIG.
But the SIGs are durable and reliable. I prefer the 1911, and could never really master the SIG DA to SA transition. Try them both and then decide.
screw it and get a usp!
triggers on new usps are pretty good, and you can go c&c or da/sa.
the da/sa transition is not so noticalbe on a usp when you decock (as opposed to dry firing it) it as it leaves it in a quarter cocked postion.
hella reliable and durable too!
but if youre determined to get a sig or 1911,
1911 all the way!
ergoniomics and trigger pull cant be beat!
k.s.
triggers on new usps are pretty good, and you can go c&c or da/sa.
the da/sa transition is not so noticalbe on a usp when you decock (as opposed to dry firing it) it as it leaves it in a quarter cocked postion.
hella reliable and durable too!
but if youre determined to get a sig or 1911,
1911 all the way!
ergoniomics and trigger pull cant be beat!
k.s.
Rainbow Six
New member
For carry or SD/HD I'd have to go with the P220 given the choices here. 
R6
R6