Sierra Jacketed Hollow Cavity Bullets

[DWFan]

The distance from cannelure to base of the Hornady 158gr XTP (FN or HP) is .372".
The distance from cannelure to base of the Sierra 158gr JHC is .376".
The distance from cannelure to base of the Sierra 158gr JSP is .350".

These numbers supplied by Hornady and Sierra respectively.

Seating depth is everything in a straightwall revolver cartridge. An excellent example of this is the Barnes 140gr XPB compared to the Hornady 140gr XTP. The distance from cannelure to base of the XTP is .325" but the same distance on the XPB is a whopping .457". COAL is the same for both. Obviously using load data for the XTP when loading the XPB would result in an extreme over-pressure situation due to the .132" difference in seating depth. It is, in fact, greater than the difference between a .38 Special and a .357 Magnum case. (Imagine putting a full-power Magnum powder charge in a Special case.)
I have read on several sites where people go by the COAL when "swapping" load data. This is absolutely wrong. The Hornady 158gr XTP's use the same load data because they have the same seating depth; their COAL's are different. The Sierra 158gr JHC and JSP do not use the same load data because their seating depth's are different while the COAL is the same. That is why most manuals use the JHC because the same powder charge used with the JSP would result in lower pressures and remain safe.
The 170gr Sierra JHC, btw, has been discontinued. Why Sierra quit making it but kept the 170gr FMJ when they have the 180gr FPJ baffles me. The JHC was an excellent bullet for both the Magnum and the Maximum.

 

[skizzums]

let's not forget to point out the obvious first. a dirty cylinder will make stick cases, even if it doesn't look dirty, tiny hardened particles will grip like sandpaper. now if you were saying tat you shot both loads on the same trip and only the Hornady's were sticking, then we can rule that out. but if not, clean clean clean, then I like to use a very quick spray of an aerosol type case lube and then wipe out again so it will leave just a thin layer of that slippery film behind. did you recently shoot .38spl's out of this revolver, mainly pointing to lead cast as being the culprit, but even jacketed 38's will leave a carbon burn ring around the area of the case mouth.

if your loading to the cannelure and they have an equal amount of base beneath the cannelure, I don't see your load as being the problem. I think ANY mass produced revolver, smith & Wesson or otherwise benefits from a gently cylinder chamber polish(just the first 2/3's), but you said the others dropped free, so that shouldn't be the cause of this issue. were the previous loads using nickel cases and the Hornady's not? nickel cases are nice and slick. were the "drop-free" loads using virgin brass and these using once-fired? the inside of my die can leave vertical marks on my cases that don't always completely iron out.

this is probably too simple of a solution, but it's also the easiest to work on. next time you go, bring a couple different loads and try to single out the Hornady as being the culprit, then you can worry about the other stuff.

I shoot a Taurus with chattered up cylinders, they all stick for me..... I have a 30 something year old Taurus that's a smooth as ice. would be a quick job to hone them smooth, but I don't really care too much on an uber cheap revover

 

[Nick_C_S]

The distance from cannelure to base of the Hornady 158gr XTP (FN or HP) is .372".
The distance from cannelure to base of the Sierra 158gr JHC is .376".
The distance from cannelure to base of the Sierra 158gr JSP is .350".

I guess my measurements with my old eyes and a pair of calipers turned out to be pretty close Not very far off.

 

[Overkill777]

Wow lots of replies.

The reason I ask is that H110 under a 110gn bullet is an odd combination.

It's a 158 gr bullet. I only load 158's in 357 magnum right now. I figured that's the best place to start. I'm just trying different bullets.

It's worth a second try. Obviously, since this is a re-test of ammo that had sticky cases, you'll want to be real careful and accurate with your charges. And I wouldn't load a lot of them - maybe a cylinder's worth. It also may not be a bad idea to do a few at 14.8gn and try those first.

I loaded up a few at 14.7 gr and a few at 15.0 gr. I double checked powder charge and bullet seating depth. So we'll see.

Frankly, I do not generally like IMR 4227 with the .357 - has given me more variable results than other powders.

That's what I started with because that's all I could find at the time locally. I was quite happy with the accuracy I got out of this powder, even though it didn't meter as well. But since I got a couple pounds of H110 I am working with that as it seems a little more consistent and has a little more horsepower. Speaking of powders, I would love to try some 2400 but I have not been able to locate any.

Seating depth is everything in a straightwall revolver cartridge. An excellent example of this is the Barnes 140gr XPB compared to the Hornady 140gr XTP. The distance from cannelure to base of the XTP is .325" but the same distance on the XPB is a whopping .457". COAL is the same for both. Obviously using load data for the XTP when loading the XPB would result in an extreme over-pressure situation due to the .132" difference in seating depth. It is, in fact, greater than the difference between a .38 Special and a .357 Magnum case. (Imagine putting a full-power Magnum powder charge in a Special case.)
I have read on several sites where people go by the COAL when "swapping" load data. This is absolutely wrong. The Hornady 158gr XTP's use the same load data because they have the same seating depth; their COAL's are different. The Sierra 158gr JHC and JSP do not use the same load data because their seating depth's are different while the COAL is the same. That is why most manuals use the JHC because the same powder charge used with the JSP would result in lower pressures and remain safe.

I have only ever used the manufacturer's listed COAL from their own manuals for the specific bullet.

let's not forget to point out the obvious first. a dirty cylinder will make stick cases, even if it doesn't look dirty, tiny hardened particles will grip like sandpaper.

I understand this. After I did the load workup for the XTP's and found the 15.0 gr load slightly stuck, I shot a cylinder of my Sierra JHC's at 16.0 gr and the shells slid right out. So that made me think it was not just fouled cylinders.

It just surprised me that one type of bullet could go to max load and show no signs of pressure while another showed signs of pressure well before max. I will get back after I carefully do another workup to verify my findings. I find this all very interesting and a great learning experience and I truly appreciate all the feedback!

 

[Nick_C_S]

I guess somewhere, I mixed up H110 with a 110gn bullet. . . like I mixed up a JHC with a JSP.

*sigh* This hasn't been my best thread.

It's a 158 gr bullet. I only load 158's in 357 magnum right now. I figured that's the best place to start. I'm just trying different bullets.

158's are a good place to start with 357 Mag. It's generally considered to the the cartridge's "native weight." They tend to be more gentle on the gun too. I do load 125's; but at about 75% of the time, it's 158's.

 

[Mauser69]

Different bullets of same weight can be VERY different!

It just surprised me that one type of bullet could go to max load and show no signs of pressure while another showed signs of pressure well before max. I will get back after I carefully do another workup to verify my findings. I find this all very interesting and a great learning experience and I truly appreciate all the feedback!

This is an issue that can screw up many new reloaders. And a PRIME example why we tell newbies to get and READ IN DETAIL the info from one or more COMPREHENSIVE reloading manuals (NOT load data or equipment instructions - those are for AFTER you know the underlying concepts.

A 158 grain bullet is NOT a general commodity that can be used with any 158 grain load data. The variable issue is the seating depth and resultant change in case capacity. The load data you use will almost always specify the COL, but with revolvers, we basically seat to the cannelure/crimp groove on any particular bullet without specific regard to the specified length. And THAT is where you can get into trouble if you do not understand the bullet variables. Nick_C_S pointed this out early in this thread.

Most experienced loaders know that it is often hard or even impossible to find specific load data for exact bullets they have unless they are simply buying big name-brand stuff off the shelf. To make matters worse, there is a lot of load data that does not even specify the exact bullet - heck, all of Hodgdon's old load manuals from the 70s, 80s and 90s not only didn't specify the exact bullet, they often listed whole ranges of bullet weights for a single recipe! This can lead a reloader to assume it really doesn't matter much as long as the bullet they have is "close" to what the data specifies. May be true sometimes, but can be very dangerous as you approach max loads!

In general, you want to be extra cautious if you substitute a hollow point bullet in a load for a soft point - and that is especially true for modern extreme expanding hollow points like the XTP. This is because the hollow point design causes the main bullet weight to be in the base, which means the total length of the bullet must be longer, necessating deeper seating and reduced case capacity (all that simply means HIGHER pressure). The sad thing is that almost no manufacturer publishes the bullet OAL or cannelure height for you to compare one bullet to another.

Here is some specific data for a few currently available 158 grain bullets. Nosler is one manufacturer that DOES publish bullet OAL and specific load data, so I was able to calculate the canellure height on their 158g JHP from their specified COL. DWFan already gave us the specifics for the Hornady XTP and Sierra bullets, and I personally measured the Zero 158g JSP:

Zero 158g JSP seating depth =.335"
Sierra 158g JSP seating depth =.350"
Sierra 158g JHC seating depth =.376"
Hornady 158g XTP seating depth =.372"
Nosler 158g JHP seating depth =.475" !

A quick glance at the above numbers tell you that your are fairly safe comparing loads between the Hornady XTP and Sierra JHC bullets, but if you are already at max with a Sierra load and then try the same thing with the Nosler JHP, you could be in for a real surprise. And if you wanted to load the inexpensive and excellent Zero 158g JSP, you would find the resulting performance significantly below what you were getting with the same MAX load.

Since this data is not generally published, you have no way of comparing the bullets if you do not already have them all side by side. That is the reason we advise caution and careful load workup. And it is also why I measure the OAL and seating depth of every handgun bullet I buy, just to have the info for future comparisons.