Side-stepping the Constitution

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The proposed UN small arms treaty would not restrict gun ownership in member countries. It is about the international peddling of small arms weapons.

You state this every time the subject comes up, and every time I feel obliged to point out that there is no draft of the treaty yet, so we can't really say what will be in it. We do know that several of the proposals consider handguns and shotguns to be equivalent to missiles and attack helicopters in terms of manufacturing, sales and export controls. We know that several Latin American nations have called for full registration of ammunition and firearms.

Frankly, I think you are way too optimistic about what this treaty will do. I don't expect the U. S. to ratify the treaty; but I'll bet you money right now that the final result would have restricted gun ownership here if implemented. It may not restrict it as much in the countries that do adopt it, since many of them are already much more restrictive.

 

[thallub]

Frankly, I think you are way too optimistic about what this treaty will do. I don't expect the U. S. to ratify the treaty; but I'll bet you money right now that the final result would have restricted gun ownership here if implemented. It may not restrict it as much in the countries that do adopt it, since many of them are already much more restrictive.

A vocal few have bought into the conspiracy hype that the dastardly blue hats are out to take our guns away. Some refuse to believe that a UN treaty does not trump the US Constitution.

http://74.6.117.48/search/srpcache?...c&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=HAE9loCZqo6RM7Rhorg7zQ--

Acknowledging also the right of States to regulate internal transfers of arms and national ownership, including through national constitutional protections on private ownership, exclusively within their territory,

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

No treaty, UN or otherwise, trumps the Constitution. On the other hand, we have 3-4 Justices on the highest court in the land, and numerous judges in lower courts, who don't think that an individual Second Amendment right exists - and the outlines of that right in case law are still very, very narrow. That is the position of last hope, not the first line of defense.

Quote:
Acknowledging also the right of States to regulate internal transfers of arms and national ownership, including through national constitutional protections on private ownership, exclusively within their territory

And as I have already explained 3 or 4 times now, that is a 2009 resolution from a handful of countries proposing what they think should be in the treaty. It isn't a guarantee and there is enough vagueness in that statement to allow significant gun restrictions.

 

[thallub]

On the other hand, we have 3-4 Justices on the highest court in the land, and numerous judges in lower courts, who don't think that an individual Second Amendment right exists - and the outlines of that right in case law are still very, very narrow. That is the position of last hope, not the first line of defense.

US courts abide by the principle of stare decisis : Let the decision stand. Federal courts do not often reverse themselves. Ever wonder why Roe vs Wade has been confirmed by "conservative" leaning courts?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

US courts abide by the principle of stare decisis : Let the decision stand. Federal courts do not often reverse themselves. Ever wonder why Roe vs Wade has been confirmed by "conservative" leaning courts?

I can point you to about 20 lower court decisions RIGHT NOW that say Heller and McDonald taken together stand only for the principle that you have the right to possess a revolver in your home for self-defense subject to reasonable regulation. Just recently, the same D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals that found an individual right in the Second Amendment in Heller I, denied a right to own semi-automatic pistols, high capacity magazines or posses one outside of the home in Heller 2. They also concluded that the current Byzantine registration process in D.C. was constitutional.

My general point is not that we need to man the ramparts and do an all out push on this, we do not. However, one of the reasons it remains a distant threat is because of the good work done by pro-RKBA U.S. NGOs. So we shouldn't dismiss every single attempt to raise funds around this issue as fear-mongering. In particular, both the NRA and SAF have gotten certified as NGOs and are taking an active part in the negotiations, both by reporting on what is going on and addressing the UN committee.

As it stands now though, President Obama has indicated he will only sign the treaty if all the other countries agree to it. Since this would be a significant problem for the arms manufacturing industries in China and Russia, who have much more lax export controls than the United States, I would be surprised if that happens. Even if it did happen, we have enough Senators who have indicated they will not ratify a treaty with offensive provisions that even if the Brady Campaign got to pick Senators instead of selecting by popular vote, we would still be safe until after the 2014 elections.

So, is this an urgent concern? No. But the concerns being raised are not fear-mongering, they are just concerns that aren't immediate.

And concerning draft resolutions of the UN Small Arms Trade Treaty, here are a few more, I've highlighted in bold those portions that might concern U. S. gun owners: http://www.un.org/disarmament/convarms/ATTPrepCom/Documents.html

1. We, the States participating in this Conference, bearing in mind the different situations, capacities and priorities of States and regions, undertake the following measures to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit trade in small arms and light weapons in all its aspects:

At the national level

2. To put in place, where they do not exist, adequate laws, regulations and administrative procedures to exercise effective control over the production of small arms and light weapons within their areas of jurisdiction and over the export, import, transit or retransfer of such weapons, in order to prevent illegal manufacture of and illicit trafficking in small arms and light weapons, or their diversion to unauthorized recipients.

3. To adopt and implement, in the States that have not already done so, the necessary legislative or other measures to establish as criminal offences under their domestic law the illegal manufacture, possession, stockpiling and trade of small arms and light weapons within their areas of jurisdiction, in order to ensure that those engaged in such activities can be prosecuted under appropriate national penal codes.

4. To establish, or designate as appropriate, national coordination agencies or bodies and institutional infrastructure responsible for policy guidance, research and monitoring of efforts to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit trade in small arms and light weapons in all its aspects. This should include aspects of the illicit manufacture, control, trafficking, circulation, brokering and trade, as well as tracing, finance, collection and destruction of small arms and light weapons.

5. To establish or designate, as appropriate, a national point of contact to act as liaison between States on matters relating to the implementation of the Programme of Action.

6. To identify, where applicable, groups and individuals engaged in the illegal manufacture, trade, stockpiling, transfer, possession, as well as financing for acquisition, of illicit small arms and light weapons, and take action under appropriate national law against such groups and individuals.

7. To ensure that henceforth licensed manufacturers apply an appropriate and reliable marking on each small arm and light weapon as an integral part of the production process. This marking should be unique and should identify the country of manufacture and also provide information that enables the national authorities of that country to identify the manufacturer and serial number so that the authorities concerned can identify and trace each weapon.

8. To adopt where they do not exist and enforce, all the necessary measures to prevent the manufacture, stockpiling, transfer and possession of any unmarked or inadequately marked small arms and light weapons. (BR: Got any firearms made between 1899-and 1968?)

9. To ensure that comprehensive and accurate records are kept for as long as possible on the manufacture, holding and transfer of small arms and light weapons under their jurisdiction. These records should be organized and maintained in such a way as to ensure that accurate information can be promptly retrieved and collated by competent national authorities. (BR: i.e. centralized registration)

10. To ensure responsibility for all small arms and light weapons held and issued by the State and effective measures for tracing such weapons.

14. To develop adequate national legislation or administrative procedures regulating the activities of those who engage in small arms and light weapons brokering. This legislation or procedures should include measures such as registration of brokers, licensing or authorization of brokering transactions as well as the appropriate penalties for all illicit brokering activities performed within the State's jurisdiction and control. (BR: Face to face sales between private parties?)

15. To take appropriate measures, including all legal or administrative means, against any activity that violates a United Nations Security Council arms embargo in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

16. To ensure that all confiscated, seized or collected small arms and light weapons are destroye, subject to any legal constraints associated with the preparation of criminal prosecutions, unless another form of disposition or use has been officially authorized and provided that such weapons have been duly marked and registered.

19. To destroy surplus small arms and light weapons designated for destruction, taking into account, inter alia, the report of the Secretary-General of the United Nations on methods of destruction of small arms, light weapons, ammunition and explosives (S/2000/1092) of 15 November 2000. (BR: Cheap surplus ammo? Foreign milsurps?)

20. To develop and implement, including in conflict and post-conflict situations, public awareness and confidence-building programmes on the problems and consequences of the illicit trade in small arms and light weapons in all its aspects, including, where appropriate, the public destruction of surplus weapons and the voluntary surrender of small arms and light weapons, if possible, in cooperation with civil society and non-governmental organizations, with a view to eradicating the illicit trade in small arms and light weapons.

21. To develop and implement, where possible, effective disarmament, demobilization and reintegration programmes, including the effective collection, control, storage and destruction of small arms and light weapons, particularly in post-conflict situations, unless another form of disposition or use has been duly authorized and such weapons have been marked and the alternate form of disposition or use has been recorded, and to include, where applicable, specific provisions for these programmes in peace agreements.

I clipped out quite a bit of stuff to try and reduce the "wall of text" effect; but this is just a single document out of dozens generated by the UN Small Arms Trade Treaty.