That is the other point I wanted to bring up. How would we unite? I'm assuming the successful resistance movements would start in rural areas and would snowball and get larger and larger as they go throught the towns rounding up non-sheeple for the cause that either have their own weapons/ammo or can provide them with one. Sure there are lots of gunowners but we aren't all in one place. This is either an advantage (we do small, precise raids that confuse the enemy and keep them from fighting effectively) or a disadvantage (we aren't a force that can fight back openly with what military is still left).
SHTF Big time
- Thread starter rugerdude
- Start date
Rich Lucibella
Staff
I'll tell you how I WOULDN'T do it. I wouldn't do it by telegraphing my plans or intentions on an Internet Web Site, "Anonymous Handle" or not.
I may or may not be a fighter; but I'm definitely not someone else's Cannon Fodder. Though, in times of strife, I'm awful glad that some people volunteer for the role.
Think about it.
Rich
ReadyOnTheRight
New member
Gifted.
Hey Gifted,
Your right. AWOL would most likely be the wrong answer, and it was mostly chest thumping to say it.
AWOL is still an option though, if the military is asked to assist in widespread confiscation. I know that I could not participate in that.
The Oath of Enlistment says " support and defend the Constitution of The United States of America". This includes the 2nd Amendment.
It is a hard position, to be sure. Do I follow orders, or obey the Oath? Would an order to confiscate weapons be considered unlawful or immoral? (those don't have to be obeyed)
Lots to think about, and it weighs heavily on the mind of many Soldiers, Airmen, Marines, Sailors, and Coasties.
Just rest assured that we'll be here when you need us, one way or another.
Hey Gifted,
Your right. AWOL would most likely be the wrong answer, and it was mostly chest thumping to say it.
AWOL is still an option though, if the military is asked to assist in widespread confiscation. I know that I could not participate in that.
The Oath of Enlistment says " support and defend the Constitution of The United States of America". This includes the 2nd Amendment.
It is a hard position, to be sure. Do I follow orders, or obey the Oath? Would an order to confiscate weapons be considered unlawful or immoral? (those don't have to be obeyed)
Lots to think about, and it weighs heavily on the mind of many Soldiers, Airmen, Marines, Sailors, and Coasties.
Just rest assured that we'll be here when you need us, one way or another.
How will this happen?
2008 Hillary is elected President. 2009 Koffi Anon steps down, but appoints BILL CLINTON as his successor. Bill has just come off a successful Tusnami relief effort. (Is a successful UN RELIEF EFFORT an oxymoron?)
There will be some sort of staged event. Think the Reichstagg burning in Germany. I can name others here in the US, but want neither the aggrevation nor the effort in proving it.
National guard is abolished.
Hillary goes to BILL and say, "We da pipple" need the UN to come in and assist us with the 'dearming' of America.
Spec op guys go over the wall, carrying everything they can drag, push, pull or drive with them.
Bill agrees, activating the UN backup plan of using Hong Kong Police departments 'Special Weapons and Tactics Battalion'. Think the elite of the Red Chinese army.
They are rushed to our shores to 'stem the violence' here in the US.
So, what do you do?
I always thought of keeping a really long knife, sneak up on some poor schmoe who has been relegated to guard duty. Knife goes in. He drops to ground. You just 'acquired' your first weapon.
And that's IF they are successful at invading our shores by being invited by both the US President AND the Secretary General of the UN.
"Don't panic. I'm with the GOVERNMENT. I'm here to HELP YOU".
2008 Hillary is elected President. 2009 Koffi Anon steps down, but appoints BILL CLINTON as his successor. Bill has just come off a successful Tusnami relief effort. (Is a successful UN RELIEF EFFORT an oxymoron?)
There will be some sort of staged event. Think the Reichstagg burning in Germany. I can name others here in the US, but want neither the aggrevation nor the effort in proving it.
National guard is abolished.
Hillary goes to BILL and say, "We da pipple" need the UN to come in and assist us with the 'dearming' of America.
Spec op guys go over the wall, carrying everything they can drag, push, pull or drive with them.
Bill agrees, activating the UN backup plan of using Hong Kong Police departments 'Special Weapons and Tactics Battalion'. Think the elite of the Red Chinese army.
They are rushed to our shores to 'stem the violence' here in the US.
So, what do you do?
I always thought of keeping a really long knife, sneak up on some poor schmoe who has been relegated to guard duty. Knife goes in. He drops to ground. You just 'acquired' your first weapon.
And that's IF they are successful at invading our shores by being invited by both the US President AND the Secretary General of the UN.
"Don't panic. I'm with the GOVERNMENT. I'm here to HELP YOU".
This always gives me a laugh...
there's always the crew that relates their "Red Dawn" fantasy about heading for the hills and resisting the tyrant. Well, let's examine a few things first. As to what the police are going to do, think of this: Some person has invested years and possibly thousands of dollars worth of training to become a cop. It's not great pay, but it comes with full bennies and a decent pension. Then they get married, buy a house, have kids (some divorce, sell the house and now have child support). They have a mortgage, a credit card, car payment, and all of the rest of the stuff that goes along with making a life. Do you honestly expect this person to chuck it all because you want to hang on to your guns? They are going to do what they're told, and round you up at work, home, grocery store, or whatever. If you are one of those that resist, they will shoot your carcass full of holes and CNN will boost their ratings with video of your bloody corpse being hauled away while they ramble on about militias and separatists.
Same goes for the military except with an added twist; the majority of the military is populated by products of a public education system that has told them that rights are granted by government, they are products of a random accident, the good of society is more important than one individual, and that guns are evil. They have never been taught how to think, only WHAT to think. The entire public education system has conditioned them to be dependent on government, and to obey unquestioningly when they are told to do something, no matter how objectionable. The main thing that they are taught by both the education system and the military is, "The boss may not always be right, but he is ALWAYS the boss".
Now on to us. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I know for myself that these are the odds that I'm facing:
THEM: a 20 to 50 year old cop/soldier that has done nothing but train for the day when they are called to act against the domestic enemy. They are supplied with flashbangs, stun guns, sidearms, automatic weapons, body armor, high explosives, and a whole bunch of other people that are just like them.
ME: a balding, pot-bellied, middle aged man with a wife and kids that, if I resist, will, at best, see or hear me be gunned down by the forces of tyranny and, at worst, catch a bullet that was intended for me. I will be equipped with a handgun. Most likely they will come at oh-dark-thirty, which means I will be in my underwear (a scary sight that might incite them to shoot me out of disgust ;>) )half-awake, and extremely scared/PO'd. You see where this is going? Sure, I'd like to think that I'd fight the good fight and go out in a blaze of glory defending liberty and the American ideals, but the truth is that I'm not willing to take the risk that my wife and kids would be hurt or killed because I had to make a stand.
That said, I will state this: The time to resist is NOW. If you do not belong to a pro-gun group, why not? Have you written your legislator to make your stance known? Have you worked on a political campaign for a pro-gun candidate? Have you tried putting together or joining a grass roots movement (note: I belong to the Oregon Firearms Federation www.oregonfirearms.org ) to stem the tide of antigun legislation? Finally, if you find the anti gun atmosphere of your state too much to bear, vote with your feet. They will lose a law-abiding, and productive taxpayer, to the benefit of some other state ( I cannot figure out why NJ, NY, and Massachusetts have ANY 2nd Amendment supporters left living in them, but I digress). Finally, what are you doing to insure that the tradition of gun ownership and marksmanship is alive and well? Have you taught others to shoot? Have you taught your children/stepchildren/nieces/nephews/friend's kids to shoot?
Don't get so wrapped up in preparing for a fight that you find out the war is over before you knew it was on.
there's always the crew that relates their "Red Dawn" fantasy about heading for the hills and resisting the tyrant. Well, let's examine a few things first. As to what the police are going to do, think of this: Some person has invested years and possibly thousands of dollars worth of training to become a cop. It's not great pay, but it comes with full bennies and a decent pension. Then they get married, buy a house, have kids (some divorce, sell the house and now have child support). They have a mortgage, a credit card, car payment, and all of the rest of the stuff that goes along with making a life. Do you honestly expect this person to chuck it all because you want to hang on to your guns? They are going to do what they're told, and round you up at work, home, grocery store, or whatever. If you are one of those that resist, they will shoot your carcass full of holes and CNN will boost their ratings with video of your bloody corpse being hauled away while they ramble on about militias and separatists.
Same goes for the military except with an added twist; the majority of the military is populated by products of a public education system that has told them that rights are granted by government, they are products of a random accident, the good of society is more important than one individual, and that guns are evil. They have never been taught how to think, only WHAT to think. The entire public education system has conditioned them to be dependent on government, and to obey unquestioningly when they are told to do something, no matter how objectionable. The main thing that they are taught by both the education system and the military is, "The boss may not always be right, but he is ALWAYS the boss".
Now on to us. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I know for myself that these are the odds that I'm facing:
THEM: a 20 to 50 year old cop/soldier that has done nothing but train for the day when they are called to act against the domestic enemy. They are supplied with flashbangs, stun guns, sidearms, automatic weapons, body armor, high explosives, and a whole bunch of other people that are just like them.
ME: a balding, pot-bellied, middle aged man with a wife and kids that, if I resist, will, at best, see or hear me be gunned down by the forces of tyranny and, at worst, catch a bullet that was intended for me. I will be equipped with a handgun. Most likely they will come at oh-dark-thirty, which means I will be in my underwear (a scary sight that might incite them to shoot me out of disgust ;>) )half-awake, and extremely scared/PO'd. You see where this is going? Sure, I'd like to think that I'd fight the good fight and go out in a blaze of glory defending liberty and the American ideals, but the truth is that I'm not willing to take the risk that my wife and kids would be hurt or killed because I had to make a stand.
That said, I will state this: The time to resist is NOW. If you do not belong to a pro-gun group, why not? Have you written your legislator to make your stance known? Have you worked on a political campaign for a pro-gun candidate? Have you tried putting together or joining a grass roots movement (note: I belong to the Oregon Firearms Federation www.oregonfirearms.org ) to stem the tide of antigun legislation? Finally, if you find the anti gun atmosphere of your state too much to bear, vote with your feet. They will lose a law-abiding, and productive taxpayer, to the benefit of some other state ( I cannot figure out why NJ, NY, and Massachusetts have ANY 2nd Amendment supporters left living in them, but I digress). Finally, what are you doing to insure that the tradition of gun ownership and marksmanship is alive and well? Have you taught others to shoot? Have you taught your children/stepchildren/nieces/nephews/friend's kids to shoot?
Don't get so wrapped up in preparing for a fight that you find out the war is over before you knew it was on.
MTMilitiaman
New member
They don't do me or anyone else any good underground. I'd pick my favorites, give or sell the rest to others to join the fight, then pack up and head for the hills. If they wanna chase me around the western Montana Rockies and shoot me for my gun, then they can have it. But I am going to make it as difficult and periless as possible for them.
You bring up from good points E, but the simple solution is to head for the hills before they come to pick you. That way when they come to pick you up at work they have to contend with a POed boss that tells them you haven't showed up for work in over a week and that when they find you, they are to tell you you're fired.
You bring up from good points E, but the simple solution is to head for the hills before they come to pick you. That way when they come to pick you up at work they have to contend with a POed boss that tells them you haven't showed up for work in over a week and that when they find you, they are to tell you you're fired.
guntotin_fool
New member
One, most troops come from families. They are not going to take armed action against others in the same Nation they grew up in. They might be convinced that a small compound in texas contains some bad people, but the whole town of dallas.... or minnespolis, or des moines?
nope/
two. Long before we got to a point of armed insurection, the hierarchy of the military would be in total uproar/ upheaval.
Look at almost all of the nations Military leaders, all Very Very firm believers in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I can not believe that they would allow this to happen
The people are smart. long before the police, NG or AFOUS could take a diligent search house by house across the nation, people would be in a massive civil resistance.
and as far as all those ATF forms, why buy new when second hand will do .... I buy most of my guns private party no paper work.
nope/
two. Long before we got to a point of armed insurection, the hierarchy of the military would be in total uproar/ upheaval.
Look at almost all of the nations Military leaders, all Very Very firm believers in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I can not believe that they would allow this to happen
The people are smart. long before the police, NG or AFOUS could take a diligent search house by house across the nation, people would be in a massive civil resistance.
and as far as all those ATF forms, why buy new when second hand will do .... I buy most of my guns private party no paper work.
Guntotinfool has good points
The military will not be reliable for widespread action against our own citizens. It is my suspicion that this is the reason that law enforcement agencies are being allowed to carry and do other things as individuals off duty but members of the military are not.
I suppose I'll have to discuss that later.
C-
The military will not be reliable for widespread action against our own citizens. It is my suspicion that this is the reason that law enforcement agencies are being allowed to carry and do other things as individuals off duty but members of the military are not.
I suppose I'll have to discuss that later.
C-
The US is in need of a tax revolt too, but yet no one steps up on that plate. Why would we expect anyone to step up to the plate on a bigger issue?
I would like to think we would do this and that, but the fact is, we wouldn't. We have become weak since our ancestors have left the land.
I would like to think we would do this and that, but the fact is, we wouldn't. We have become weak since our ancestors have left the land.
What to do???
Bury your guns (don't want them confiscated)- That way you are unable to teach your kids, friends, co-workers and family that guns are enjoyable and honorable. Instead they will only have the press and government to educate them about how evil guns are.
Don't join any 2A groups (Wouldn't want to get on any "lists")- Without solid membership these groups won't have the cash and clout to fight the gun control measures you claim to oppose.
Don't challenge GC laws in court (It might not turn out in our favor)- This way all we do is fight a delaying action as time passes and laws DO get passed!
Support groups that fight GC laws and push to challenge already passed laws.
If you are worried about SHTF scenarios then shoot regularly with like minded people who can be relied upon to help each other out when things go downhill. The time to make friends is NOW not when it is illegal to shoot and you are being hunted! If you train alone you will fight alone and die alone.
They can't get everyone at once. Someone will be the "Canary in the coal mine". When you hear of raids to confiscate guns then worry about fighting back. Until then fight so that scenario never happens!
Molon labe!
Bury your guns (don't want them confiscated)- That way you are unable to teach your kids, friends, co-workers and family that guns are enjoyable and honorable. Instead they will only have the press and government to educate them about how evil guns are.
Don't join any 2A groups (Wouldn't want to get on any "lists")- Without solid membership these groups won't have the cash and clout to fight the gun control measures you claim to oppose.
Don't challenge GC laws in court (It might not turn out in our favor)- This way all we do is fight a delaying action as time passes and laws DO get passed!
OR
Be proud of your sport and share it with open minded individuals. Don't hide it like you're into kiddie porn and afraid to be found out.
Support groups that fight GC laws and push to challenge already passed laws.
If you are worried about SHTF scenarios then shoot regularly with like minded people who can be relied upon to help each other out when things go downhill. The time to make friends is NOW not when it is illegal to shoot and you are being hunted! If you train alone you will fight alone and die alone.
They can't get everyone at once. Someone will be the "Canary in the coal mine". When you hear of raids to confiscate guns then worry about fighting back. Until then fight so that scenario never happens!
Molon labe!
carolinaflats
New member
VOTE, VOTE, VOTE! It will never happen if you don't let it.
ebd10,
No offense, but do you know WHY cops have to qualify once a year with their firearms? Because the majority WILL NEVER fire a shot during their entire career. The largest majority that I know are terrible shots, hate practicising and dread the yearly qualification shoot they HAVE to attend.
Ditto the US military.
Most firearms owners are better trained and READY for anything than most LE's and soldiers.
I used to be into political activism BIG TIME. Joined ALL the groups, went to all the meetings and all the protests. Even walked around the Governors Mansion several years ago in freezing weather, but I digress. Over the years, the only thing I've seen from politicos is they do what THEY want, the public be damned. Gov Owens, when confronted with the fact that he refused the sign the concealed carry bill sitting on his desk THE DAY COLUMBINE ATTACK HAPPENED, basically said, "I will not support gun owners". When it was pointed out to him that when he RAN for office, us gun owners were the ones that got him elected. Do you know what his response was? "They can always VOTE DEMOCRAT next time".
guntotin fool,
Hence the reason that the UN will be called in to 'help'. The military will be DISARMED right along with us. Except for those that chose to disobey, going AWOL with everything they can carry. What do we train our Spec Op guys to do? OVERTHROW bad governments.
Troponin,
This statement is FALSE. Here is the web site for Bob Schultz who is fighting the 'good' fight vis-a-vis the IRS and illegal taxation of US citizens. I have been on their mailing list for more than seven years.
http://www.givemeliberty.org/
Lomshek,
OR, do what I did. BECOME A GUNSMITH, with a degree (vocational). That makes SURE you are on EVERYBODY'S LISTS. When I signed up to go to gunsmithing school, they ran my name through NCIS. WHEN I GRADUATED gunsmithing school, THEY not only ran my name through NCIS again, but alerted the FBI that I had graduated. Get on everyone's LIST.
Besides, asssuming that the UN does bring troops to our shores and they confiscated firearms from seventy million people. That means there are AT LEAST ten million firearms owners that they have not gotten weapons from. I have forgotten most Division, Battalion, etc sizes, but there are FEW armies around the world that could withstand a ten million person INSURGENCY.
Hey, the IRA keeps the English Army at bay and has for more than one hundred years. They number in the hundreds, not the MILLIONS. It will be like shooting fish in a barrel.
No offense, but do you know WHY cops have to qualify once a year with their firearms? Because the majority WILL NEVER fire a shot during their entire career. The largest majority that I know are terrible shots, hate practicising and dread the yearly qualification shoot they HAVE to attend.
Ditto the US military.
Most firearms owners are better trained and READY for anything than most LE's and soldiers.
I used to be into political activism BIG TIME. Joined ALL the groups, went to all the meetings and all the protests. Even walked around the Governors Mansion several years ago in freezing weather, but I digress. Over the years, the only thing I've seen from politicos is they do what THEY want, the public be damned. Gov Owens, when confronted with the fact that he refused the sign the concealed carry bill sitting on his desk THE DAY COLUMBINE ATTACK HAPPENED, basically said, "I will not support gun owners". When it was pointed out to him that when he RAN for office, us gun owners were the ones that got him elected. Do you know what his response was? "They can always VOTE DEMOCRAT next time".
guntotin fool,
Hence the reason that the UN will be called in to 'help'. The military will be DISARMED right along with us. Except for those that chose to disobey, going AWOL with everything they can carry. What do we train our Spec Op guys to do? OVERTHROW bad governments.
Troponin,
This statement is FALSE. Here is the web site for Bob Schultz who is fighting the 'good' fight vis-a-vis the IRS and illegal taxation of US citizens. I have been on their mailing list for more than seven years.
http://www.givemeliberty.org/
Lomshek,
OR, do what I did. BECOME A GUNSMITH, with a degree (vocational). That makes SURE you are on EVERYBODY'S LISTS. When I signed up to go to gunsmithing school, they ran my name through NCIS. WHEN I GRADUATED gunsmithing school, THEY not only ran my name through NCIS again, but alerted the FBI that I had graduated. Get on everyone's LIST.
Besides, asssuming that the UN does bring troops to our shores and they confiscated firearms from seventy million people. That means there are AT LEAST ten million firearms owners that they have not gotten weapons from. I have forgotten most Division, Battalion, etc sizes, but there are FEW armies around the world that could withstand a ten million person INSURGENCY.
Hey, the IRA keeps the English Army at bay and has for more than one hundred years. They number in the hundreds, not the MILLIONS. It will be like shooting fish in a barrel.
Hugh Damright
New member
If the US bans guns, and Virginia doesn't secede, then I will move to one of the States that does secede.
First, very unlikely that the "SHTF" will ever happen.
More likely an incremental degrading of rights, by both conservative and liberal. Bush with "homeland security' is doing just as good of a job of dismantling rights as zipper Bill ever achieved.
If it were to happen...better learn the postmodern versions of "Bonnie Blue Flag" and "John Brown's Body"...and realize more people died from disease than combat during the unpleasantness of the 1860's. And the last time around, recall that some did chose to fight within their own families.
If it does happen, might recall the US might not survive it all. The 1860's altercation left certain problems unresolved until the 1960's. And the US has been unique insofar as it got through its "touched by fire' intact as a nation and a people...that doesn't mean its ensured to happen again.
More likely an incremental degrading of rights, by both conservative and liberal. Bush with "homeland security' is doing just as good of a job of dismantling rights as zipper Bill ever achieved.
If it were to happen...better learn the postmodern versions of "Bonnie Blue Flag" and "John Brown's Body"...and realize more people died from disease than combat during the unpleasantness of the 1860's. And the last time around, recall that some did chose to fight within their own families.
If it does happen, might recall the US might not survive it all. The 1860's altercation left certain problems unresolved until the 1960's. And the US has been unique insofar as it got through its "touched by fire' intact as a nation and a people...that doesn't mean its ensured to happen again.
Wallew
With respect, I'm not talking about the cops you encounter NOW. I'm talking about future cops that are in junior high school now. As for marksmanship, poor marksmanship doesn't stop them from shooting now, does it?
This is utter crap. Most firearms owners aren't like those on TFL. They let their firearm collect dust, maybe fire a few rounds through it every decade. Mostly they just take up space. I've spent enough time on ranges and helping out on hunter sight-in days to see the abysmal condition of marksmnanship in this country.
More importantly, I wasn't talking about the quality of the individual during crunch time, rather I was referring to the lack of will among gun owners. The skeet/trap crowd will sell the assault rifle crowd down the river if it saves their sport. The casual hunter has no idea why someone would "practice for a gunfight" (actual quote from a neighbor) if they're not a cop or soldier. Benchresters don't worry about the rights of IPSC shooters, and NO ONE gives a hoot about the .50 caliber guys.
More than that, in the future, not only will the gun owning public not act, they won't even know why they should. In 20 years, America will just be a great big England, reminiscing about past glory and waiting to finally die.
With respect, I'm not talking about the cops you encounter NOW. I'm talking about future cops that are in junior high school now. As for marksmanship, poor marksmanship doesn't stop them from shooting now, does it?
This is utter crap. Most firearms owners aren't like those on TFL. They let their firearm collect dust, maybe fire a few rounds through it every decade. Mostly they just take up space. I've spent enough time on ranges and helping out on hunter sight-in days to see the abysmal condition of marksmnanship in this country.
More importantly, I wasn't talking about the quality of the individual during crunch time, rather I was referring to the lack of will among gun owners. The skeet/trap crowd will sell the assault rifle crowd down the river if it saves their sport. The casual hunter has no idea why someone would "practice for a gunfight" (actual quote from a neighbor) if they're not a cop or soldier. Benchresters don't worry about the rights of IPSC shooters, and NO ONE gives a hoot about the .50 caliber guys.
More than that, in the future, not only will the gun owning public not act, they won't even know why they should. In 20 years, America will just be a great big England, reminiscing about past glory and waiting to finally die.
progunner1957
Moderator
Whoever said "The time to resist is NOW" was dead-on!!!
Rich, I don't think it matters what you say on this or any forum - if you have EVER filled out a 4473, they gotcha; if you have a CCW "permission slip" to exercise your 2nd Amendment RIGHT, they gotcha. I could list another half dozen "ifs" but you get the idea.
Personally, I don't worry about trying to hide. I've filled out my share of 4473s and have a CCW license. I am a member of JPFO and NRA - I refuse to go into hiding and live in the shadows because of the ambitions of the Demosocialists, the UN, or anyone else. IMO, if I do that, they have already won.
ALL gun owners must take a stand NOW - not just handgunners, not just "sport utility rifle" owners, not just .50 cal. shooters. If the goose shooters don't act until Big Brother comes for their $3000 O/Us, it will be too late.
Everyone has to make their own choices. As for me, I refuse to hide, I refuse to bury my guns, and I refuse to turn them over to "The Master."
Rich, I don't think it matters what you say on this or any forum - if you have EVER filled out a 4473, they gotcha; if you have a CCW "permission slip" to exercise your 2nd Amendment RIGHT, they gotcha. I could list another half dozen "ifs" but you get the idea.
Personally, I don't worry about trying to hide. I've filled out my share of 4473s and have a CCW license. I am a member of JPFO and NRA - I refuse to go into hiding and live in the shadows because of the ambitions of the Demosocialists, the UN, or anyone else. IMO, if I do that, they have already won.
ALL gun owners must take a stand NOW - not just handgunners, not just "sport utility rifle" owners, not just .50 cal. shooters. If the goose shooters don't act until Big Brother comes for their $3000 O/Us, it will be too late.
Everyone has to make their own choices. As for me, I refuse to hide, I refuse to bury my guns, and I refuse to turn them over to "The Master."
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Rich Lucibella said:
Well, ummm, there's just under 25,000 that have registered on this Forum alone. Tell me again how many of those have laid out specific plans for opposition?progunner1957 said:
Like I said earlier. I'm not against Canon Fodder.....everyone needs a job.
Rich