should we rush about "building nations" or should we straighten ourselves out first?

alan

New member
January 30, 2006


GOP ¢¾ Nation-Building
by Justin Logan and Christopher Preble

Justin Logan is a foreign policy analyst at the Cato Institute. Christopher Preble is director of foreign policy studies at the Cato Institute and a founding member of the Coalition for a Realistic Foreign Policy. They are the authors of the Policy Analysis, "Failed States and Flawed Logic: The Case against a Standing Nation-Building Office."

Throughout the 1990s, Republicans castigated the Clinton administration for conducting foreign policy like social work: vague, ill-defined missions in remote locales from Haiti to Bosnia to Kosovo. Republicans asked forceful questions about how these missions served the U.S. national interest. In November 1995 a clear majority of Republicans in Congress voted to stop Clinton from sending American forces to Bosnia as part of the Dayton Peace Agreement (a prohibition that Clinton flatly ignored). When a second Balkan crisis erupted in Kosovo, John Bolton had to point out to Bill O'Reilly that the United States had become "involved in a conflict where it has no tangible national interest, where it has no clear objectives in mind, and where the ultimate outcome could be very risky for what our real interests are¡¦"

Bolton was right, and he was joined by many other conservatives who saw nation-building as a dangerous and dubious misuse of American power. Although the Weekly Standard promoted the candidacy of John McCain--in part because he was one of the few Republicans who thought that Kosovo was a good idea--most on the right were encouraged when George W. Bush and his senior foreign policy advisor Condoleezza Rice came out strongly against such missions. Rice famously declared in 2000 that "we don't need to have the 82nd Airborne escorting kids to kindergarten." Bush was equally blunt: during one of the presidential debates with Al Gore, Bush said "I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation building. ¡¦ I mean, we¡¯re going to have some kind of nation-building corps from America? Absolutely not."

We agree. That's why it is so alarming that the Bush administration has created a nation-building corps from America: the State Department¡¯s new Office of the Coordinator for Reconstruction and Stabilization (S/CRS). President Bush and Secretary Rice¡¯s change of heart is most often attributed to 9/11. To be sure, 9/11 proved that untraditional threats can be serious, but it did nothing to make a strategic non-entity such as Haiti into a national security concern. Further, 9/11 did not change the extremely poor track record of nation-building efforts.

The leading advocates of S/CRS claim that the office will be able to build institutional knowledge about nation building, allowing them to reverse the abysmal history of past nation-building failures. But the very rationale for the office¡¯s creation -- the notion that failed states are automatically threatening to the United States -- is deeply flawed.

Stephen Krasner, the director of policy planning at State, and the Coordinator himself, Carlos Pascual, explained the rationale behind the office by asserting that the United States needs to learn to ¡°help stabilize and reconstruct societies in transition from conflict or civil strife, so they can reach a sustainable path toward peace, democracy, and a market economy.¡± The authors went on to argue that America needs to "establish democracies that improve the lives of ordinary individuals." Sounds more like Madeleine Albright than Ronald Reagan.

And, mind you, they weren't talking about Iraq. The office has given no indication that it has answers to the problems in Iraq. Rather, S/CRS is currently planning for nation-building operations in strategic backwaters like Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Haiti. Are those really the places where we ought to be focusing our energies while bin Laden, Zawahiri, and Zarqawi are on the loose? True, we aren¡¯t sure where any of these people are, but we¡¯d bet the next month¡¯s rent that they¡¯re not in Port au Prince.

For conservatives who are willing to trust the judgment of the Bush administration on foreign policy, they might want to imagine how the office could be used by a future, say, Hillary Clinton administration. If President Clinton decides in 2010 that we really need to send U.S. personnel into the Democratic Republic of the Congo, she'll be able to do it under the auspices of S/CRS. And a standing office devoted to nation building will be a full-time advocate for the very types of missions that the GOP rightfully used to scorn.

This brings us to the next problem, which rarely gets discussed: the need for U.S. military personnel to go along on these missions. In any stabilization and reconstruction effort, there would have to be a military component. By definition, the target state will be emerging from conflict or collapse, and the American administrators will need to operate within a relatively secure environment as they initiate and implement stabilization and reconstruction programs. But based on the historical record, an absolute minimum of five foreign troops per 1,000 indigenous population would be needed to be successful. In Haiti, for example, that would mean 17,000 foreign troops. Sierra Leone? 30,000 troops. Zimbabwe? More than 60,000 troops. Nobody argues openly that we should send these kinds of numbers of troops into failed states, but if we wanted to have a serious chance of success, the above figures suggest what would be required. Sending in a few bureaucrats and soldiers was the strategy in the 1990s. We know what kind of results that strategy yielded in Somalia, Haiti, and Bosnia.

At a time when our men and women in uniform are struggling with third and potentially fourth tours in the war on terrorism, these types of social engineering missions are even more reckless than they were under the Clinton administration. Until the Bush administration can explain why it is necessary to poke through the affairs of Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Haiti, the office should be shuttered and the State Department should go back to grown-up policy issues.
 
bottom line... do you think it's OK to let millions be tortured and buried in mass graves (some of them still alive) or should we wait till we are perfect before we attempt to stop it?

Careful... your answer will define your political stance...
and I suspect it will be painted Liberal. :rolleyes:
 
Bosnia and Iraq are two different animals. One was a threat and one was not

None of the reasons for going into Iraq that had to do with them being a supposed "threat" to the United States has proved to be true. No Weapons of Mass Distruction and miminal to no support to terrorists. Anyway, fighting terrorists has nothing to do with this nationbuilding policy that has been pursued for the past 100 years.

The internal fighting just shuffles around depending on what party is in power. If it is the liberals than Rush Limbaugh, for instance, says they are wrong and uncontitutional but if neoconservatives are doing it then, again so says Rush, then they are all American and patriotic and making the world safe for democracy and anyone who opposes it must be a liberal wacko.

We should work on our own problems such as getting a handle on massive immigration in this country and...more to the point...getting a handle on a federal government that has for too long stepped WAY out of bounds in binding the rights of the states and of the people therein.
 
9-11 dude.

When the mooslims let loose there was no "Nation Building" on the agenda.

First order of business: go to where the mooslims live and beat the tar out of them.

Second: those who are left get to have their country back from the crazy jackholes who were just disposed of.

Third: Pull out and leave an annoying US presence behind to remind any once and future jackholes just who their daddy really is.

We are in part 3 with Afghanistan and half way through 2 with Iraq.

You have to be proactive. Otherwise you just accept a few thousand deaths every year from terrorists in the USA as collateral damage from NOT HAVING A FOREIGN POLICY.
That's the Democrat (sic) stated position.

"Nation Building" is just a pejorative term used by those who can't bear any success for their political opponents.

g
 
I would not go fight a war just for nation building. However, Iraq was not that situation. Pres Bush, based upon info from various sources and shared by most in Congress, believed that Iraq posed a significant threat to our nation.

I believed that, still do, and am glad we went there. I never thought it would be easy to beat terrorism, and it can never be totally eliminated, but we have been successful so far in preventing an attack on our nation. That is good enough for me.

Pres Bush was right, is right, and we will greatly reduce the major threats to this nation. That is worth fighting for, and in their backyards.

I think one of the dumbest things that can be said is that there is no exit strategy. We will exit when Iraq can generally take care of itself, and the government is not hostile to us.
What was the exit strategy in WWII or Korea?

Jerry
 
Doug38

You're not thinking!

You're reacting!

You must be a parrot! :D :D :D


EDIT

Please see my retraction below...
 
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Doug38

You're not thinking!

You're reacting!

You must be a parrot!

No this is based on 40 years of Democrat control of the white house, Senate and House and 12 years of Republican control of white house, senate and house. Put them together, and you get the same basic program. Big government with a Big agenda. Since the so-called conservatives republicans got control NOTHING has changed but the party name.

10 years ago....5 years ago I would have said the same thing as Pointer, Model25, JerryM et al. I was just like you fellas. And still am in most respects. I was a member of the Republican National Committee, a devouted listener of Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity and such. More or less about 5 years ago, like Rush, Hannity and all rest, I was cheering for the Republicans because I was a conservative, making excuses for whenever they did things that were nonconservative...making more excuses, and more excuses and finally I realized: Ya know, myself and my family haven't moved. But the past 20 or 30 years, these people haven't gradually been moving left away from me and my like.
I have no problem with hunting down Osama Bin Laden, but using it as an excuse to broaden the powers of the national government and broaden our little economic and political empire around the world is anything but true conservative Jeffersonian policy.
 
We saw what happened during the Carter years when our leadership does nothing about what goes on in other countries. You watch them appease, and make agreements, beg, and cower, and shake hands, and pee all over themselves with indecision - and DO NOTHING!
By the time he was done, the Soviets were at their high tide, Communist states were all around the western hemisphere, Iran fell to a hostile regime from a powerful ally. Millions had already been murdered in places where we pulled out because some didn't have the stomach to "get involved", because it "is not our business". Watch the 1st ten minuites of Miracle and see what doing nothing gets you.

Then within 8 years Reagan had won the cold war without firing a shot. He stood up to enemies in places like Grenada. Bush I stood up to Saddam, when the likes of Kerry and Kennedy and 46 other Democrats were again voting "No". We triumphed and liberated a nation. Yet Bush stopped too soon...and thousands and thousands more died under that scumbag.

We saw a bit of the same appeasement thing under Clinton - who was just not strong enough to pull the trigger so many times, no matter how or where we were hit. No matter how many Americans died. He cowered, and made policies, and gave strong statements and empty threats, and did nothing. A "paper tiger". So we had 9/11, and N Korea has Nukes.

We do not live in a vaccum. Everything that happens in this world affects this country one way or another. Yes, we have plenty of problems here at home - illegal immigration being one of the biggest I can think of right now. I still prefer a more proactive policy when dealing with other nations - our interests should always be 1st, and they are important enough that it is worth getting involved. Deal with them now, or deal with them later.

I understand your fear of ever increasing power of the gov't. It is on-going. As long as people in this country keep counting on the gov't for everything, keep taking no responsibility, keep wanting gov't health care, and gov't housing, and gov't education, and gov't funded stem cell research, and gov't funded abortions, and gov't funded contraception, and gov't welfare, and gov't this and gov't that, etc. etc. etc. - as long as so many insist to depend on them, those in power will only get more powerful.
 
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the past 20 or 30 years, these people haven't gradually been moving left away from me and my like.
Now you're talkin'... I can agree with these things...

I take it back... you are not a parrot...

I think it's more like 40 years...

I do think that the farther left the "right" moves, the more staunchly we must hold our ground...

I am not happy with anything Bush and I haven't been, since Bush 1 shut down the Gulf War before it was over... He pulled the biggest boner in US History with that one, and made himself a lackey of the left-wing liberals who pressured him into ending that war prematurely...

But, then, he has never made a secret of the fact that the Bush Family is Politically Moderate and his son is no more a conservative than FDR... merely closer to the left.

Speaking of appeasement... They have been appeasing the Liberals for (40?) years and that is what has brought them to the left and is ending the great 200 year era of US Constitutional conservatism.

WE must not give an inch... maybe if we remain united... WE can save the Constitution and bring the nation back to it's original ideals and values...

But, if we even appear to "parrot" the liberal propaganda it will do us a great deal more harm than good and have an effect just like the "appeasements" you have mentioned and I have stated in this post above.

Avoid even the "appearance" of deserting the conservatives and/or capitulating to the liberals... Please? :o
 
None of the reasons for going into Iraq that had to do with them being a supposed "threat" to the United States has proved to be true.
That's what the liberals would like us to believe... but there were indeed WMD's used by Saddam on the Kurds...

There is irrefutable proof of that.

Where the WMD's are now is not publically known just as it isn't known what happened to the multiple truckloads of US currancy. This doesn't mean they didn't exist... we just can't access them.

All of the reasons they gave us have at least some accuracy... but I am satisfied that we have stopped another Genecidal Holocaust and that we should continue to do so... even if we have to deceive the selfish sheeple and the Liberal leaders of the ignorant. :rolleyes:

I am inclined to believe that Bush II was a dupe rather than a liar...
The Bushes haven't got the balls to blatantly lie to the world... Even Barbara's balls aren't that big. :D :D :D
 
You guys who think Iraq didn't pose a threat, or didn't have plans to assist those who ARE a threat ...Need to get out more





:cool:
 
should we rush about "building nations"

No. Regardless of the reasons it is never justified, in my opinion. I highly doubt anyone here would be happy if China or the EU decided to "nation build" in the US because of our own shortcomings. Doesn't matter how "perfect" one thinks America may be, I don't believe it justifies encroaching on the choices of other countries.
 
The WMDs that Bush was talking about were strategic nuclear weapons not nerve agent. I know the Kurds were killed by nerve agent, using the helicopters we gave them. The Iraqis used nerve agent against Iran while we looked the other way. So no big secret there.

How much nerve agent would a terrorist have to hide under his overcoat to be effective in killing thousands? Depending on weather conditions some nerve agents tend to dissipate quickly especially if windy. Nerve Agent was used in the subway attacks in Tokyo with hardly any effect other than killing a few and making most people sick. How close would a crop duster get to an event like the Super Bowl filled with nerve agent. Nerve agents best use is as a area denial weapon.

I am placing my money on radioactive dirty bombs. Radioactive materials could be stolen from hospitals, medical diagnosis centers and some other places. The effects would not be immediate on people, some would take years to manifest itself. The economic cost of decontaminating a densely populated urban area would be staggering. Think of the fear factor this would cause. The goal of the terrorist is to strike fear in a nation to achieve the desired result. They are cheap to make and are portable.

Chechan Rebels made a dirty bomb that weighed about 30 lbs and buried it in Moscow and reported it to the authorities to show how easily it could be done.

"A September 1987 incident from Brazil demonstrates the destructive power of a 20-gram sample of Cesium-137. Stolen from an abandoned radiological clinic, the sample was cut into pieces by workers at a local junkyard. Over the following weeks, four died and an additional 249 were contaminated. To decontaminate the area, 125,000 drums and 1,470 boxes were filled with contaminated clothing, furniture, dirt and other materials; 85 houses had to be destroyed."



I am still waiting for Bush and Company to find those strategic nuclear WMDs that could be launched within 15 minutes.

for your reading pleasure

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2005/050613-disaster-drill.htm
 
worm
Regardless of the reasons it is never justified,

The countries you named are already engaged in a very subtle nation building and teraforming...

How about self-preservation for a justifiable reason?

Try to look a little further into the future... please? :rolleyes:
 
An excerpt from GHT's post.

"First order of business: go to where the mooslims live and beat the tar out of them."

As I recall, "mooslims" live all over the world, and their segment of world population is growing quite rapidly, I believe. So, as for beating the tar out of them, given what appear to be current problems with our military operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, perhaps with our military itself, what would you use for the bat?

Pointer wrote:

Pointer bottom line... do you think it's OK to let millions be tortured and buried in mass graves (some of them still alive) or should we wait till we are perfect before we attempt to stop it?

Careful... your answer will define your political stance...
and I suspect it will be painted Liberal.

The answer to your question is NO. We shouldn't turn a blind eye to mass murder. Given that we aren't perfect today, nor is it likely that we ever will be, nobody else is either, the answer to that part is also NO. I think that before rushing off to DO GOOD, we should have a better idea of what we are getting into than we seem to have recently had though.

If the foregoing "paints me liberal" in your view, so be it. I think that you might have a problem with color vision.
 
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