Should WA State Control Their New Wolf Population

[tahunua001]

we are talking about 200-300 pound wolves here and they cover a lot of ground. there is really no domestic dog you could equate them to but I could see an animal that weighs that much eating 30 pounds of meat a day and working it off by the time the pack has moved 30 miles through the mountains. in the winter they would burn even more.

 

[Buzzcook]

we are talking about 200-300 pound wolves here

Really? You have proof of that?

 

[Alaska444]

Today, 10:50 AM #40
mapsjanhere
Senior Member

Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 2,078
Maybe we need to send some of our NM wolves up to the poor guys in Idaho, they're doing population control hunts here. The few grey wolves they introduced don't seem to be making the promised dent.
As for the "50 elk per year per wolf" number, that's 20-30 lbs of meat per day for each wolf. I don't think they'd be running down that many elk with their belly dragging on the ground. 50 elk per pack sounds more reasonable.
__________________
F 135 - the right choice

Actually the figure is correct. It is about 3 elk per wolf each month according to several studies. That is about 40-50 elk per year.

http://rliv.com/pic/USGS%20Wolf%20Kill%20Rate.pdf

What is not taken into consideration, is that these wolves kill many more animals than they eat. I have foregone placing some of the websites showing how wolves eat the cows from the rear, pull out the entrails and then leave them alive to die a death of pure misery. Thrill kills are a part of the Mackenzie Valley wolf behavior.

 

[Mainah]

we are talking about 200-300 pound wolves here and they cover a lot of ground. there is really no domestic dog you could equate them to but I could see an animal that weighs that much eating 30 pounds of meat a day and working it off by the time the pack has moved 30 miles through the mountains. in the winter they would burn even more.

+1 on wanting to see a source that proves that wolves get that big.

We are but a part of nature (Biology applies to all life of whatever sort) and the key fact is quite simple: Nature bats last.

Yup, and there are nine innings. We got rid of wolves and cougars here in Maine, and we got huge coyotes (not 200-300 pounders, but big).

 

[Alaska444]

Today, 03:13 PM #44
Mainah
Senior Member

Join Date: July 9, 2007
Posts: 345
Quote:
we are talking about 200-300 pound wolves here and they cover a lot of ground. there is really no domestic dog you could equate them to but I could see an animal that weighs that much eating 30 pounds of meat a day and working it off by the time the pack has moved 30 miles through the mountains. in the winter they would burn even more.
+1 on wanting to see a source that proves that wolves get that big.

Quote:
We are but a part of nature (Biology applies to all life of whatever sort) and the key fact is quite simple: Nature bats last.
Yup, and there are nine innings. We got rid of wolves and cougars here in Maine, and we got huge coyotes (not 200-300 pounders, but big).

That is not the issue in the wolf "reintroduction" here in the Pacific northwest and northern Rockies. I would have fully supported protecting the returning population of the native Idaho wolf but that is not what the Feds chose to do. They sold the public a bill of goods that is false with an interloper from Canada.

When I lived in Maine we didn't have any moose at all. Now, today, moose are hunted with a recovered population. I suspect in time, the cougars will return as we have sightings of them even in Connecticut of all places. Coyotes are taking over the entire country and are alive and well here in Idaho as well.

The monster wolves from Canada are a true wolf disaster as declared by the Governor of Idaho last year. This has nothing to do the excesses of the past. It has all to do with betrayal and falsehoods perpetrated by the Feds against the populations in these areas.

 

[MarkDozier]

FrankenMauser says -Washington state includes some of the wolves' historic habitat. Calling them an invasive species is incorrect.

Dude you are so wrong. The breed reintroducing in WA are not native species anymore then scotch-broom is a native weed.

 

[tahunua001]

^ agreed. there are several different subspecies of gray wolves. saying that these wolves are indigenous because they are gray wolves is like saying that an Akita is a good choice to replace a labrador as a bird dog because...well they are both dogs.

 

[Buzzcook]

http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/2012/07/11/wolf-poachers-get-more-than-slap-on-wrist/

Wolf poachers get more than slap on wrist

A federal judge in Spokane on Wednesday strengthened the penalty against three members of a Twisp family who pleaded guilty to killing wolves from the first wolf pack spotted in Washington since the 1930s.

Senior U.S. District Judge Frem Nielsen confirmed $73,000 fines against William, Tom and Erin White. But he sentenced William White to six months’ home confinement and Tom White to three months.

Under a much-criticized plea bargain agreed to by federal prosecutors, the three poachers were to get off with probation.

The poachers’ crimes came to light when a woman, believed to be Erin White and giving a false name, tried to ship a blood-dripping parcel containing a wolf pelt to Canada from the Federal Express office in Okanogan. She claimed it was a rug.

The two wolves killed were part of the Lookout Pack, first identified in 2008. The pack was reduced to two (possibly three) animals and has not produced pups since the killing. A pack in the Teanaway River, north of Cle Elum, is now the only breeding pack in the Cascades.

 

[mquail]

This isn't the first time this has happened. The eastern peregrine falcon was supposed to be extinct although there were confirmed reports of that peregrine all the way up until 1980. A known wild produced male bred with a released falcon in 1980 and a pair of unbanded birds produced young that same year in Maine. Anyway to make a long story short about 7 subspecies of peregrine were released east of the 100th meridian. The idea was to throw them all together and let nature sort it out. The birds were very successful and have recovered to be delisted in 1998 by the feds. Sadly some states still carry them on their endangered lists.

So far as I know there hasn't been any problems with those birds. They eat a bunch of stuff we'd rather not have such as pigeons and starlings but the facts are the Feds and others released different subspecies of peregrine falcons in the east when they could have waited longer and allowed the Canadian and Western US captive populations of peregrines to begin to produce enough birds to begin releases a few years later. West of the 100th meridian there were populations of peregrines so it was agreed upon to release only birds from that subspecies. For the life of me I can't figure out how the birds could tell where the 100th is. So far as I'm concerned it's water over the dam but I thought I'd bring it up. To so many a peregrine is a peregrine and that's that.

I wonder if the Feds have done this more than a couple of times. Florida panthers? Red wolves? Others?

 

[Unclenick]

I do not buy for one second that the amount of cattle that my uncles have had disappearing(which has increased exponentially over the the last decade) has anything to do with the NATIVE PREDATORIAL SPECIES.

Tahunua001,

Not to change the subject, but when you say "disappearing" do you mean completely? Like, no trace ever seen again? No carcasses or bones? I ask just because I saw a news story that cattle rustling had been making a big comeback, particularly in the southern states, and wondered if it had maybe worked its way up into your neck of the woods.

 

[Youngshooter]

Before I get into more than I bargained for I'll start with a disclaimer that I am absolutely no expert on the issue, but have done a bit of experimentation on an issue much similar to this one. My modeled simulator I used first in a Wildlife ecology lab which was dumbed down for the "non-interested" to understand, using only the variables of: growing season of natural vegetation, wolves, and moose. Long story short, I got my hands on a more complex model from a bit of sweet talking, in which I included: wolves, natural vegetation, open grazing used by farmers, natural wildlife, and farm raised open grazing animals. A mere sample of what is seen in the subject of the thread. What I found through many run throughs including various subject sizes and growing season lengths was an eventual widespread wolf population growth at the cost of resources that are much more valuable to the people investing in them. As stated before, I am NO expert on the issue, but wildlife ecologists are using models similar to the one I used(obviously much more complex) but along comparable scenarios and variables. As someone who deals with property damage along with occasional animal harm from hogs, I know how this can several damage a farmer or ranchers way of life, and with wolves, their safety. I question the idea of reintroduction, but I'm just a kid using some tools.
Have a nice day y'all!

 

[jason_iowa]

There are some shocking statistics in this thread. I wonder how many of them are accurate. I tend to think the ones I agree with are and the ones I don't are not We don't have this problem in iowa although I would guess its on the way from wisconsin down the Mississippi if they are not here already.

We do have a duty to hug trees and protect animals but we need to do it in a balanced and economical way. I hear about dogs getting snatched from porches and the WI DNR cutting checks to replace them. Not really how I want my out of state WI hunting license money being spent...

I like wolves but I like people (most of the time) pets and steak more.

 

[Youngshooter]

I wholeheartedly agree, Jason. What I'll say next hurts my moral values in regards to the issue, but I did it anyways and gained a bit of perspective from the "tree hugger's" point of view. I was taking my regular Wildlife Ecology class, which I loved and learned a ton, but my professor was a former PETA member/whale wars kinda lady(to give you an idea). Anyhow, we were given an extra credit assignment to go to a website lobbying to prohibit depredation hunts in these northern states that struggle with the wolf issues. Moral tugs deluxe. Well I did it for the grade, and have read the emails they send out just to be fair, and it's exactly what I expected. A one sided, close minded approach on the other side.

 

[jason_iowa]

Whale wars I kind of agree with but its not in my back yard and does not effect my economy. PETA has caused much more animal suffering then it will ever hope to prevent. The anti fur movement destroyed the fur market and caused an explosion of fur bearers which causes disease, starvation, and a generally less healthy population aka animal suffering. I disdain animal abuse and cruelty but there is nothing ethical about what peta does IMHO.

 

[Youngshooter]

It is rather unfortunate that groups that are as hypocritical as PETA still have the power to lobby on such a large scale when everyone knows their constantly recurring actions that no person who respects animals would do. What a world we live in, and mindless people we legally have to coexist with.

 

[Unclenick]

I once read that psychologists define rational thinking as being able to argue both sides of an issue then change sides if the side you support loses that debate. It was also commented that most persons don't learn to do that until they are about 28 years old (no offense to Youngshooter, who may be one of the exceptions). It explains why activists are disproportionately younger than 28.

Rational thinking seldom happens in large organizations put together around one side of an issue. Pretty much by definition, the organization can't change sides without undoing itself. The organization comes to be its own cause, and there come to be too many jobs and too much money and too much political capital and other vested interest for it not to resist change for its own survival.

I have to say, reading all the conflicting stats and information on this topic, that it seems like it ought to be a good subject for 60 Minutes or some other investigative reporting. Did government do the right thing or did it try to fool mother nature? Are either or both sides engaging in hyperbole or dismissing valid data out of hand? Seems like one possible answer could be "all of the above", depending on where you are.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Excellent commentary, Nick.

Unfortunately, in regards to "both sides engaging in hyperbole or dismissing valid data out of hand", I dare say there are few on any side of any issue who do not.

 

[tahunua001]

Tahunua001,

Not to change the subject, but when you say "disappearing" do you mean completely? Like, no trace ever seen again? No carcasses or bones? I ask just because I saw a news story that cattle rustling had been making a big comeback, particularly in the southern states, and wondered if it had maybe worked its way up into your neck of the woods.

there have been no reported cases of rustling out in these parts for some time. for the most part the carcases are being discovered but some just up at disappeared. it's difficult to find cattle in mountainous terrain when your search radius is several hundred acres.

I would not be against the reintroduction of the rocky mountain gray wolf(moot now, since they are now officially extinct) and I wouldn't even be opposed to the introduction of a species that closely resembles them(IE, lives in the same environment, same mortality rate, same size, same temperament etc etc) but that is not what happened. they replaced a relatively small, lone hunter, generally scavenger but willing to take down sickly animals, with the largest of the pack hunting wolves in north america that has adapted to harsher conditions so the mortality rate for pups is almost nonexistent and is not afraid to take on a bull bison, no less a herd of cows. they would have been better off to attempt the implantation of a red wolf or prairie wolf than these beasts.

 

[Strafer Gott]

It's only after experiencing the "Feds" manage anything that perhaps I come off as more than skeptical. I actually prefer elk hunting to wolf hunting, but if that's all that's left, what else will these states have to offer? I tend to buy in on anecdotal evidence from the locals, such as tailgate shots of trophy wolves, before some politically, grammatically correct contractor BS mission statements. How do you cook a wolf?

 

[tahunua001]

How do you cook a wolf?

quite simple.
1. kill wolf
2. remove hide
3. leave rest of wolf and take hide to F&G for quality testing and stamp of approval
4. take home and marinate in tanning spices and cook on low
5. serve on cold nights in front of the stove