Should I still cotton to S&W?

I

internetfish

New member
I beginning to think that S&W has sort of sold out on us gun owners with their recent BS. I wanted to buy another S&W, a big-brother for one of my other revolvers, but now I'm considering a Ruger, but I hear they are in the thick with playing the devil's advocate as well. I love S&W wheelguns, but Ruger seems to be the lesser of the two evils. Am I being petty, or do I have a legit gripe? My money goes only to quality and those who are deserving of it...and supposedly to those who place my 2nd Amendment rights in high regard. Is S&W doing this or are they on the govt's breast now for good?
 
If you look long enough and hard enough, you'll find a used but unfired big brother. I've managed to pick up 2 pristine S&* model 19's that will never return a dime to that british owned scum bucket company. 'sides, the older stuff from them beats the newer stuff hands down. What was out of the box quality 35 years ago requires the performance center today to match in fit, finish and function.
 
I wish the older stuff were better but it isn't. The tolerances are tighter and the accuracy is improved. Of course there are exceptions, and many of the best old guns survived because they are good shooters. But as a rule the average gun is better in the last 5 years than 30 years ago.

For example the tolerances in the S&W charge hole diameter is about 10 times tighter at 0.0002" now, according to Jerry Miculek. The materials have never been finer. In fact, the improved precision with CNC has allowed them to make 7, 8 and 10 hole cylinders, something previously unsafe because of variable wall thickness.

The older ones are good guns for the most part. If you are careful, you will get a great gun at a great price. But don't buy an old gun for the reason of getting a better gun.

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Mark
NRA member
 
Let's be realistic. S&W sold us out. However, they made and still make very nice guns at a fairly reasonable price. Will I ever buy a new S&W firearm? Never. Will I continue to purchase high quality used S&W firearms, where they money spent will never benefit the S&W company. Certainly!!!

spike
 
Even though I have about a dozen S&W pistols, I do not own a single one of their revolvers -- get a Taurus and stay away from Ruger as well. While I am sure that some will disagree with me, I see what Ruger did to be an even greater evil than what S&W did. True, the S&W agreement is worse but in the end, they've only hurt themselves with it since dealers and consumers are free to to disobey it and S&W loses sales. Ruger, on the other hand, helped make the 10-round limit on magazines a law (do a search on previous threads for more details on this) and that had an impact on EVERYBODY -- ALL handguns & rifles. At least the S&W thing only impacted them.
 
I would humbly offer a different, controversial perspective.

Don't feel bad for buying a new S&W product.

It's easy to champion the boycott against them now, since you can still buy new and there's still lots of used S&W's out there. But remember, come November when the agreement takes effect, no dealer is going to bother with them and supplies will dry up eventually. How will the boycott seem when you can't get ANY S&W's at all?

I am not going to get into the whole "get a Taurus/Ruger instead" argument. For a variety of reasons, some of us will NEVER be happy with what those companies offer/DON'T offer (such as a Bodyguard or Mountain Gun). Smiths makes some fine, unique products. I will freely admit I am a Smith revolver worshipper, going back to my teenage years.

I say, if you are the type who has unfulfilled S&W dreams (like me), buy the S&W you want NOW.

They are not long for this world.
Regardless of any boycott, after November, you probably won't be able to buy a new S&W whether you want to or not, since dealers won't fool with their pesky requirements. At least, as an FFL, I know I'm not gonna put up with such horse****.

The boycott has spoken volumes to S&W, but with it or without it, S&W has slit its own throat by turning on its dealers.

Why not get what you want while you still can, and make the best of this god-awful mess? If you do buy a new one, you'll definitely be a statistical minority. You aren't going to affect the boycott one bit, and in the end, it won't matter any more than whether or not you kicked a dying horse. There's only one degree of dead.
 
I wouldn't take Jerry Miculek's word for the improved quality of the newer guns. Miculek works for Smith & Wesson and therefore his "job" is to sell new Smiths. I've worked on several of the newer Smiths and frankly they are junk compared to the older guns. Smith & Wessons tooling has gone down hill over the last few years. The only internals on Smiths that I have ever seen that needed a great deal of work were late guns.
All of this is beside the point since Smith did sell us out and their soul to the devil. Even if Smith had the quality they lack the patriotism to support. I just bought a pair of used Smith 9mm's bringing my total Smith & Wesson collection to 52 guns. Much as I love them I will not be buying any new ones.
Interesting perspective FUD. I'll have to give that one so thought.

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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
 
Grapeshot, what you just said made a whole lot of sense to me. S&W is, for all practical purposes, dead because come November, no dealer that I'm aware of will enter into this agreement with them ... I might as well and pick up a few pistols that I had an eye on while I still have the chance. FUD.
 
I'd wait on the S&W if I were you. Yes, they have slit their own throat and belly, it'll be fun to sit by and watch them die. That being said, once the agreement really takes effect and they begin to seriously perish, I'm sure you'll be able to pick up one of their pieces at a pretty decent price.

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The best weapon for self defense is the one you have when the need arises!
 
I'm with RAE and Gunslinger on this one. I have been a Smith fan since the 50s. Haven't liked the lack of consistant quality for years and with the agreement I will not buy a new one regardless of how well it is made. I have had WWII M&Ps that required less work than my recent 686 and 696. Their politics suck and their quality control sucks.

Sam...if I let a J frame sleep with an L frame, will I gen an I frame?
 
Fish,

Do what I do, buy older, used S&W guns.

I get mine at gunshows, from small independent dealers.

None of the money is going to S&W.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
I bought a used Dan Wesson .357 last year. I think it is a 1994 model. I love it. The main reason I bought it over others is that the trigger was the best I had ever pulled on a DA. The price was good too. I highly recommend it.
 
Slinger & Sam,

We'll have to agree to disagree...

I'm not certain what you consider to be "work," (replacing springs? smoothing the actions?), but you should really refamiliarize yourselves with the Bangor Punta guns.

CNC machinery has, for the most part, made fit & finish come back to the level that it was at in the 1920s, when the company could afford to pay fitters whose only job was to either fit the side plate or to fit the cylinder crane.

I've yet to see a newer Smith (last 10 years or so) with the kind of problems that some of the BP guns had.

Yes, trigger pulls are heavier. But they're heavier for just about every manufacturer now.

Where the new guns will truly never hold a candle to the old is in the area of final polish & bluing.

The sort of final polish that was routinely done on guns in the early days will probably never again be matched, even by the custom shop.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Thanks FUD, I really appreciate your input on this since you've been around here longer than I have. Like me, I think you can see that the death of this American icon is a sad, somber, regrettable occurence, not an occasion for "spitting on graves" as some here would do.

To me, it is just another nail in the coffin of "high quality firearms". Instead, the "grave-spitters" gleefully support buying less-refined firearms whose innards are more geared toward mass-production.

I can remember when you could buy a new S&W revolver and out of the box the action broke like a glass rod and it fired every time. But that was when gunsmithed handguns were almost unheard of. You didn't have to. Take a new Ruger revolver out of the box and marvel at that spongey, heavy single-action trigger.

But heck, I can remember back when people used to test guns at 25 yds. too. What is it now, 15 yards? 21 feet?

It's sad to say that there are quite a few shooters out there who have never had a really good S&W revolver, and hence, have no frame of reference for discussing what "high quality" firearms are. Even fewer shooters appreciate real "target accuracy" from a revolver nowadays.

I wonder if the "grave-spitters" even know what they're missing. Our words fall on deaf ears.

Oh, one other thing I forgot to mention - the price of S&W's is only going to go UP once they've quit producing them, another reason to get one now.

Oh boy, am I gonna get flamed.
 
Now you guys have got me thinking about my next purchase. I have been seriously contemplating picking up a revolver in the very near future for hunting (probably won't be hunting with it anytime soon, but wanted to get used to it anyway). The make I have been focusing on is Ruger, both because of the whole S&W sellout thing but also because they are supposed to make a more rugged .44 Mag. The problem is I really like the look and feel of the S&W Model 629. I should also mention that I don't want a Taurus - I have just heard too many bad comments on their weight, triggers, and overall quality.

What do you guys suggest? Super Redhawk or 629?
 
Grapeshot, you might get flamed but it seems kinda like you are inviting it.

Grave-spitters? ha! Yeah, you can put me in that crowd and gladly. I will joyfully sit by and watch the cowards lay off all of their workers, close down plants and relegate their former weapons to pieces of history.

It amazes me that while the decision of *&* is explained away as business or their own free option, when someone else gives their own feelings about the deal they are classified as "grave-spitters". Hardly seems fair does it? Well this is business and we're voting with our pocket book and our voice.

As far as the rest of us buying weapons of inferior quality, that is your own judgement and I respect that "opinion". But there are plenty who will disagree with you and say that company x, y or z makes a better handgun.

I disagree as to the price going up. Do you sell *&*? How are sales going? Last gun show I was at the prices were very low and no one was buying.

Best of luck to you and I hope that you can live without *&* in the future.

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The best weapon for self defense is the one you have when the need arises!
 
Originally posted by sks:
"Grapeshot, you might get flamed but it seems kinda like you are inviting it."

Not intentionally. But I will speak my mind, especially when I see there isn't a whole lot of independent thought going on.

"It amazes me that while the decision of *&* is explained away as business or their own free option, when someone else gives their own feelings about the deal they are classified as "grave-spitters". Hardly seems fair does it?

WHOA! Hold on there! I never tried to defend their decision or explain away anything, bub. In fact, who has on this thread? And don't act as if you're being persecuted for your anti-S&W beliefs because I referred to some as "grave-spitters". Cripes, look around you. People in the majority can't be persecuted, can they? Practically everybody on this board wants to see S&W die a slow painful death, so you are comfortably in the majority and your viewpoint has the loudest and most numerous voices by far.

As for what seems fair, I'll tell you what is unfair: it's when "grave-spitters" on these boards try to bully newbies out of buying a fine SMITH AND WESSON handgun, for no reason other than their own political views. Well, they are STILL fine guns, regardless of their CEO's traitorous actions. And that was all I was saying.

"Well this is business and we're voting with our pocket book and our voice."

Go for it, I applaud your loyalty to your convictions. I was only saying that the few people who see things differently don't need to be castigated for it.


"As far as the rest of us buying weapons of inferior quality, that is your own judgement and I respect that "opinion". But there are plenty who will disagree with you and say that company x, y or z makes a better handgun."

My assertion that Smith makes the best guns is OPINION, very true. I told the truth as I see it based on years of experience with all kinds of handguns. Of course, opinions may vary, but I figure mine is as good as anybody's since I'm quite discriminating when it comes to handguns.

Like a lot of people, I'm on a limited budget, so I want the few guns I can afford to work.
SMITH AND WESSONS have always more than fulfilled that requirement by WORKING WELL.
Other companies guns have not fulfilled these requirements AS CONSISTENTLY.

I was trying to present this alternative (read MINORITY) opinion in order that people reading this can make an informed decision about whether SMITH AND WESSON is for them. There IS another view besides the ever-prevalent (and almost done-to-death) "boycott/hope they rot in hell" argument.

"I disagree as to the price going up. Do you sell *&*? How are sales going? Last gun show I was at the prices were very low and no one was buying."

I don't sell SMITH AND WESSON, although I have sold 2 personal S&W guns in the last week or so. And I made money on them. Perhaps this is a regional difference? People here want a quality weapon for hunting and self-defense that they can rely on, and S&W has a good reputation for that.


"Best of luck to you and I hope that you can live without *&* in the future."

Thank you.


Many Regards,

Grapeshot
Click to expand...
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Grapeshot: ... they are STILL fine guns, regardless of their CEO's traitorous actions ...[/quote]That is a very good point -- nobody is defending S&W's actions but by letting them die, we are doing the work of the anti-gun crowd for them ... putting the oldest & one of the largest American (yes, I know that they are currently owned by a British company but they are based in America, with American workers and an America histroy dating back more than a century) handgun makers out of business! How about trying to save them so that future generations can enjoy these fine quality handguns? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Grapeshot: ... My assertion that Smith makes the best guns is OPINION ...[/quote]And Yes, the quality of S&W products when compared to others is an OPINION but everyone is entitled to one. Being mainly a supplier of handguns to the consumer market, they didn't get to be the largest (up until two years ago) handgun maker in the world because their products were second rate.

For a discussion of Smith & Wesson products (not their policies), come join other S&W owners at a forum that I co-moderate on the Smith & Wesson Firearms Enthusiast's Web Board, which is in no way affiliated with the Smith & Wesson Company of Springfeild, MA.

FUD
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Share what you know & learn what you

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited September 26, 2000).]
 
Boycott of Smith sends a message to the other manufacturers that have so far held the line against government blackmail.
If we buy product from the resistors while refusing to buy from Smith it is great incentive for the other manufacturers to continue to resist the government blackmail.

Smith n Wesson is a foreign owned company on American soil. The fact that it employs a few hundred Americanns does not change that.

I take pride and pleasure in ownership of my American S&Ws, far as I am concerned the company is now in the hands of the enemy.

Re quality of the newer ones. I looked at a new 696 just a few months ago. The timing was late and the trigger was very un smith-like, both single and double action. Gritty. That gun was bought by another who invested time and work in it and he was still not happy. I bought it used and made it well. It is now like most of the thirty year old ones were out of the box, smooth.

When AMF owned Harley Davidson, they re-tooled the plant and had the capability to build better product faster. Quality control sucked and the market went south for them. Then the Harley insiders and entheusiasts bought it back from AMF and injected pride in workmanship. The product improved and the company is very healthy.

I hope that something like that will happen to the once proud S&W logo.

Sam it's terrible when you forget more than you knew in the first place.
 
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