Should I play the hero or be a "good witness"?

In many of these active shooter scenarios, I honestly would rather play the hero engaging them with direct fire.
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Well, I had to look up "active shooter scenarios" to see just what the heck this is about.

Every reference I can find has to do with law enforcement or SWAT team training or training for campus security organizations.

That says to me we're talking about trained, indemnified, sworn officers acting as teams.

I'm not trained, I'm not indemnified, I'm not sworn, and I am one person.

And I'm not stupid.

Nor do I engage in fantasies about gunfights. My gun is for use as a last resort, period. I do not see my CCW endorsement as a kind of badge that confers upon me police powers.

Nor am I under the impression that if I try "engaging them with direct fire" that I will necessarily be regarded as a "hero." Where I live I have the duty to retreat, and if I injure or kill a bystander, it will not be the community that makes them whole--that will be done at my expense, as will my defense.

To me it's a complete no-brainer.

I really think ECHOONE has it right in every respect.
 
My buddy got hit on his custom Harley Davidson by a small pick up truck.The guy was drunk as a skunk driving the truck.


My buddy had a broking leg and Hip and the bike was on top of him,he was stuck under it.


A gentlemen or he calls a guardian angle came out of the blue and pulled him out from under the bike to safety.Shortly after the bike caught fire,it bursted into flames.


The gentleman disapeared in the crowds,the funny thing is not one witeness remembers seeing Him or what he looked like.know thats a hero in my book.




IMO getting into a gun battle is not being a hero unless you absolutley took out a BG that was just on a shooting spree and have prevented other casualty.
 
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And if you are really that serious about engaging with active shooters, why not join the Army? They will train you on the proper use of a wide variety of firearms, even fully automatic ones! Way cool, eh? And after basic training, I am sure they can be very accommodating when it comes to shipping you off to a place where you can almost be assured that you will be engaging active shooters. And unlike being a civilian, you will actually get paid for the privilege of being shot at!

Scott
 
If you shoot - you life WILL be forever changed.

You may be disarmed, handcuffed, and even spend some time in jail until the cops get the situation sorted out. You will be interrogated. You WILL need to hire a lawyer.

If there's anything slightly off center about the shooting, you will be charged and may have to stand a criminal trial. You stand to lose your right to own guns. If you're convicted, you may spend prison time - away from your family and loved ones.

You will probably be civilly sued by the BG or his family. Even if you're found innocent of criminal charges, a civil lawsuit can be won by "a preponderance of the evidence". 50.1% does it there. You could lose everything you own.

You will become famous instantly. Your name, if not your picture, will be published in every local paper. Your friends may shun you. Even your family may not understand. Some people may even hate you. You may see and hear mailed and verbal threats.

You will probably relive the scene again and again in your mind. You may have nightmares about it. I've never shot anyone and frankly, I don't want to think what it would be like. It may affect your emotions and personality. It's called post-traumatic stress syndrome. It's very real and very incapacitating. You may need medical or psychiatric treatment. Your family will have to live with you as a changed person.

If you draw your weapon and don't succeed, you may die or be maimed for life. Your family will have go on without you.

Now, I've outlined some worst-case items, but think it over...is it worth it?

I'll shoot to protect my life or my family's lives, or another person's life. Make no mistake about that. I won't shoot to protect another's property or money.
 
You will probably be civilly sued by the BG or his family.
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The only exception to this might be if you shot someone in your home. Many "castle laws" have a provision that state that IF you are found to be criminally innocent of the shooting, the "victim" or his family can not bring a civil suit against you. If you shoot someone away from your home, its a whole different ballgame.

But still, this follows being legally cleared, and this can be a lengthy and expen$$$ive process. And even if you are found to be in the right, the sheriff or chief of police will NOT thank you for doing their job for them by taking another BG off the streets. The mayor will NOT give you the key to the city or a medal of honor. John Walsh will NOT come to your house and feature you on AMW and give you an award for bravery.

As I have said in other threads, "Dead is forever!"

Scott
 
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The safety in the PT 1911's is my main issue with them, Taurus has released a high capacity 1911 .45, to me this would make a great woods gun as in its cheaper and higher capacity. Wouldn't worry as much about scratching it bu the safety design takes it off my list.

Don't get me wrong, there are 4 taurus's in my house along wth Kimbers and Rugers and I find them to be reliable etc, but that saftey design takes it off my list for anythingother than a range gun.

AHHH MOD HELP

NOt sure how this posted here I meant to post this in another thread, please remove.
 
a friend and his wife were recently dining out. while seated and enjoying a meal, a man entered and started a ruckus and started waving a gun. the gentleman, active duty and just back from the sandbox, id'd the threat, made sure there were no others around, drew to 'covert ready' ( essentially muzzle down and held near your rump behind you) and directed others toward cover.

the guy waved the gun around but mainly pointed it at his own head and raved a bit.

now i GUARANTEE my friend was WAY more than capable of putting one thru the guys eyeball at 25yards while blindfolded...but he had cover and the guy was not directly threatening anyone. he was prepared to act..but the guy yelled a bit, pointed at his head and then made off to his car.

ability and opportunity...but no intent.

cops called, bad guy identified and dinner finished.

pretty cool cumcumber and in the end everyone went home safe.
 
Maybe

Ya, it's a big Q. Every situations different. It's like EMT school, in a perfect world, here's how you treat an overdose. But, not one call's the same.

Now if I see a guy with a weapon to someones head and I have a close, easy, clear shot. Ya, I would take it. Even if I could maybe knock him with something, I would still rather remove another piece of scum from the earth.
 
Maybe topic should have been: Engage Shooter or Be A Witness

Have to have many more parameters.

Echoone said,
God Forbid you find yourself having to take another person's life, even if it's a BG, Don't think for one minute that for a long long time your not going to be effected by the image and picture of killing someone haunting you in your dreams!
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Being a witness to the shooting of one or more, will also haunt you for a long time to come.

Many have expressed that they are not trained to deal with it. Maybe you should get training!!! Just because you have CHL doesn't mean shooting paper targets coorelates to a shooter situation. Training could save your life and possibly others.

There is a pretty good reason virtually every business, LE organization, security outfit, and safety consulting organization says forget about being a hero, just sit back and be a good witness.
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Yeah, detective I saw the guy in the ski mask and the gun, shoot the teller. He then shot the lady and the little girl in the stroller standing in line next to him. He then shot the man in line behind him. He used 2 rounds in each of the first three victims and 4 in the next one. He then reloaded and got his money from the next teller. On his way out of the bank, he shot the security guard, once in the head and once in the chest. He was wearing a red Nike sweatshirt, black jeans and tennis shoes. He was between 6' and 6'4" and weighed maybe 200 to 250#'s.

I wonder how many of those organizations would want you to "just sit back and be a good witness.", if one or more of the above victims were their loved ones.

See, it truly depends ENTIRELY on the situation.
 
Interesting motivational comment:

I would still rather remove some scum from the Earth.

----- Now, isn't our goal to prevent loss of life and/or grievous bodily harm rather than being a self-appointed executioneer?

Such attitudes might come back to haunt one - esp. when found on the Internet. Tsk.

One argument against CCW was that some folks would see themselves in this light. Luckily most folks don't.
 
Never "play" the hero. It's a good way to wake up one day and discover you are no longer amongst the living! :eek:

It's a judgement call. Can you intervene safely? If not, are you increasing or decreasing the level of risk for all the innocents involved? (or for the BGs, but I usually leave concern for their well-being out of the SD hypotheticals) In other words, are your chances of success good? If no, you might be better off making a quick exit/hasty barrier (and that might go for everyone else too!)

For most active shooter cases, the key to ending the threat/reducing casualties is introducing armed resistance as fast as possible. In that case, I'd say the odds favor intervening (if choosing between counter-attack and being a witness). Personally, I'd say the best options would be a HASTY exit or a counter-attack. It's hard to be a victim when there are 3 concrete walls between you and the shooter! Then, there is the emotional/moral aspect. Personally, I despise the thought of knowing I could have helped but chose to safely exit while leaving others with the threat. That's just me. I'd rather try to stop the guy and risk my own health than not (that is very dependent on exact circumstances and my estimations for likelihood of success--I'm probably not going to run into the building!)
 
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I am also curious about the OPs use of the word 'play'... The only playing I do with bullets is "Call of Duty". That being said, I think the after-effects of watching innocent people get murdered and not doing anything about it would be worse than the after-effects of dispatching an cold-blooded killer.

FWIW: Approximately 20% of all Americans suffer from some sort of mental illness, including PTSD; approximately 20% of all returning combat troops suffer from PTSD, Depression or anxiety. Statistically speaking, about 1/5 of all people are pre-disposed to mental instability, and will suffer PTSD if exposed to traumatic situations, the rest will utilize healthy coping skills and find peace with his/her actions

My pedigree for this point of view is my 8 years in uniformed service, including combat service in Afghanistan, and my 6 years of working in mental health including emergent involuntary inpatient work with Iraq veterans.

I would be interested to hear Glenn's take on this, he is certainly better educated in the fine art of psychology than I am.
 
I wonder how many of those organizations would want you to "just sit back and be a good witness.", if one or more of the above victims were their loved ones.
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All of them. One of the really neat things about good advice is that it doesn't change based on who the participants are.
 
Ian - interesting question. There is a fair bit of work on PTSD after being a crime victim and for police after shooting someone. However, I don't know of differential effects of being able to help, or feeling one should (even if you couldn't) and great stress effects.

I'll ask around.

Glenn
 
So here's a take on it from my colleague (a stress expert and ok on guns).

1. Guilt about inaction is probably not a predictor of getting a stress disorder. Other things and factors predict your vulnerability.

2. However, you do get a stress disorder from an incident and feel guilty, that adds a different flavor to treatment. Exposure therapies work better with stress disorders to deal with the incident itself. However, dealing with guilt would probably add the need for some cognitive restructuring to deal with that added part.

Note - this is not therapuetic advice for anyone but a statement of what is in the literature. YMMV.

GEM
 
I wonder how many of those organizations would want you to "just sit back and be a good witness.", if one or more of the above victims were their loved ones.

All of them. One of the really neat things about good advice is that it doesn't change based on who the participants are.
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David,

Just so I really get the "good advice", I should watch your wife and child be shot and you would want me to do nothing?

If they are mine and you are able, please put an end to the BG so mine can come home.
 
Is it better to play the hero or be a "good witness"? In many of these active shooter scenarios, I honestly would rather play the hero engaging them with direct fire. I believe that waiting around for a tactical swat team to arrive only increases the chances that I or another person would get hurt or killed.
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John,

Skip the hero biz. The question should be, "Do I try to stop them or observe and get as good descriptions as I can?"

If it's an active shooter, someone who is going about killing people and probably won't stop till they run out of ammo or are killed, then if you can try to stop them,, do it! If you think you can't, then don't.

If it's a simple robbery, you might very well want to just get a good description of you can unless what they do goes past a line you have defined as unacceptable, like herding you into a back room and telling you to lie down.

But what you don't want to do is stand there and start thinking, "To be, or not to be"....
 
Is it better to play the hero or be a "good witness"?
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If you have a clear shot at the BG and can save lives, of course that is what you should do. I think what has some people here concerned is the OP's motivation. If you are going to "engage an active shooter", do it for your love of humanity, not because you want to be grab the headlines and be a hero!

Scott
 
Just so I really get the "good advice", I should watch your wife and child be shot and you would want me to do nothing?
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That is up to you. The question was if any of the organizations would want you to "just sit back and be a good witness.", if one or more of the above victims were their loved ones.
If they are mine and you are able, please put an end to the BG so mine can come home.
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Just out of curiosity, if I try to put an end to the BG and and it causes yours to be shot and killed, will you still say it was a good thing to do?
 
While I hope to God I am never put in this situation I know exactly what I will do if I am. I will go with my gut.

It's been my short life's experience that every time I check myself or second guess myself I end up regretting it. That's why I don't do it anymore. If my gut says "shoot", I will shoot. If my gut says "stand down" I will stand down. For me it is as simple as that and it should be so for everyone else, as none of us can truly know what we will do or how we will do it until we have actually been there.
 
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