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Should I have a shotgun for Home Defense
- Thread starter Monty
- Start date
M1911,
Speaking only for myself, and from the perspective of buying into the {{a shot gun is the ultimate HD tool}} side of things. I agree with you to a point. The point of difference is the possiblility that I'll miss. Honestly, I feel a one shot stop is something that only a nuclear reaction can give. For anything less, there's another few full chambers or more rounds in the magazine. Like a few others, I read the once or twice a year part of the original post. Once or twice a year just ain't going to cut it, no matter what it is you're doing. In that situation, like in mine, even at room distances $hit happens.Given parctice,lots and lots of practice, I'm betting I would lose that little double hitch bad habit I have when shouldering a shotgun. To be quite frank, I'm a bit scared of the things on the shooting end as well as the other end<----NOT A GOOD THING.
Here is maybe a better way to say it. 22 years ago, I woke up one morning and ate a giant bowl of stupid for breakfast
. I took it in my head that I was going to be a sky diver. It LOOKED like a lot of fun, so I figured why not? Now for someone like myself that gets a bit shakey wearing thick socks, the idea of jumping out of a plane 1/2 mile in the air was going to take a bit of getting used to ( or a bunch of Uncle Jack, but the last thing I needed was a crushed and mutilated body AND a hangover ) $60.00 and 5 hours later, I was as ready for the big event as I would ever be. A 15 min climb, filled with terror, turned into 5 seconds of sheer terror as I fell away from the plane. The next 2 1/2 min of the jump consisted of just plain boredom! There is absolutly nothing to do except turn left, turn right, and look at the same scenery. Now the interesting part, and the part that applys. When I landed, and landing took up 4 hours of a 5 hour class, I forgot just about everything I was taught about PLF's and just sat down! Honestly, this is one of THE most stressful things I ever did in life, and in the end, I forgot everything and just sat down. When chooseing something for HD, which I think everyone can agree is another high stress situation, the last thing I want is to just sit down again. If you have to choose something, use all the info you can gather, make a decision and try it out. If it works (speaking of a shotgun), then stick with it until you get it right.Once or wice a year may not be enough.
[This message has been edited by RAE (edited October 11, 2000).]
Speaking only for myself, and from the perspective of buying into the {{a shot gun is the ultimate HD tool}} side of things. I agree with you to a point. The point of difference is the possiblility that I'll miss. Honestly, I feel a one shot stop is something that only a nuclear reaction can give. For anything less, there's another few full chambers or more rounds in the magazine. Like a few others, I read the once or twice a year part of the original post. Once or twice a year just ain't going to cut it, no matter what it is you're doing. In that situation, like in mine, even at room distances $hit happens.Given parctice,lots and lots of practice, I'm betting I would lose that little double hitch bad habit I have when shouldering a shotgun. To be quite frank, I'm a bit scared of the things on the shooting end as well as the other end<----NOT A GOOD THING.
Here is maybe a better way to say it. 22 years ago, I woke up one morning and ate a giant bowl of stupid for breakfast
. I took it in my head that I was going to be a sky diver. It LOOKED like a lot of fun, so I figured why not? Now for someone like myself that gets a bit shakey wearing thick socks, the idea of jumping out of a plane 1/2 mile in the air was going to take a bit of getting used to ( or a bunch of Uncle Jack, but the last thing I needed was a crushed and mutilated body AND a hangover ) $60.00 and 5 hours later, I was as ready for the big event as I would ever be. A 15 min climb, filled with terror, turned into 5 seconds of sheer terror as I fell away from the plane. The next 2 1/2 min of the jump consisted of just plain boredom! There is absolutly nothing to do except turn left, turn right, and look at the same scenery. Now the interesting part, and the part that applys. When I landed, and landing took up 4 hours of a 5 hour class, I forgot just about everything I was taught about PLF's and just sat down! Honestly, this is one of THE most stressful things I ever did in life, and in the end, I forgot everything and just sat down. When chooseing something for HD, which I think everyone can agree is another high stress situation, the last thing I want is to just sit down again. If you have to choose something, use all the info you can gather, make a decision and try it out. If it works (speaking of a shotgun), then stick with it until you get it right.Once or wice a year may not be enough.[This message has been edited by RAE (edited October 11, 2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAE:
M1911,
Speaking only for myself, and from the perspective of buying into the {{a shot gun is the ultimate HD tool}} side of things. I agree with you to a point. The point of difference is the possiblility that I'll miss. Honestly, I feel a one shot stop is something that only a nuclear reaction can give. For anything less, there's another few full chambers or more rounds in the magazine. Like a few others, I read the once or twice a year part of the original post. Once or twice a year just ain't going to cut it, no matter what it is you're doing. In that situation, like in mine, even at room distances $hit happens.Given parctice,lots and lots of practice, I'm betting I would lose that little double hitch bad habit I have when shouldering a shotgun. To be quite frank, I'm a bit scared of the things on the shooting end as well as the other end<----NOT A GOOD THING.
[/quote]
Rae:
I agree with you that you can't count on a one shot stop, even with a shotgun (although the likelihood is a WHOLE lot better with a shotgun than a handgun). Regarding missing, ANY long gun is a whole lot easier to aim than a handgun. The situation that we are talking about here, barricaded in your safe room, puts the goblin in a fatal funnel. As he kicks the door open, even if he moves forward or backward, there is going to be little change of angle from you to him. You won't have to change your point of aim much if at all for followup shots. Believe me, at 10 feet it is incredibly easy to hit the target with a long gun, even under stress.
Take your shotgun to the range. Set up at a distance of 10 feet. Aim the shotgun at the target without using the sights. Make sure the butt is firmly against your shoulder and that the bulk of your weight is on your front foot. Have a friend blow a whistle. When the whistle blows, fire two shots. Repeat this several times. I think you'll find that your first shot will be dead on and your second will be pretty darn close too.
I use my shotgun primarily for deer hunting. For most of the year, it sits unused. I know that I can pick it up and hit the target at 10 feet, even if I haven't used it for 9 months.
It helps to take a shotgun class, which will teach you the proper stance and the proper way to mount the gun. Reduced recoil tactical loads help as well.
But you don't have to train each month just to be able to hit a target at 10 feet with a long gun.
If you're not comfortable with your shotgun, fine don't use it. But it sounds to me as though you just haven't had the required initial training with your shotgun. After some initial training or practice, you don't have to be shooting your shotgun twice a month to hit a target in a funnel at 10 feet. The initial training does not have to be a major amount of time. Long guns are easier to aim than pistols.
Finally, I NEVER said the shotgun is the ultimate home defense gun. It has advantages, particularly in a barricade situation. Long guns are easier to aim than pistols. They also have much greater stopping power. Long guns are also harder to retain, which is a disadvantage if you have to leave your safe room. Long guns are also harder to negotiate narrow hallways with. A handgun is also easier to store discretely in a lock box. Each has advantages and disadvantages, and I never meant to imply anything else.
But for use of a shotgun in a barricade situation, practicing a couple times a year WILL cut it.
M1911
M1911,
Speaking only for myself, and from the perspective of buying into the {{a shot gun is the ultimate HD tool}} side of things. I agree with you to a point. The point of difference is the possiblility that I'll miss. Honestly, I feel a one shot stop is something that only a nuclear reaction can give. For anything less, there's another few full chambers or more rounds in the magazine. Like a few others, I read the once or twice a year part of the original post. Once or twice a year just ain't going to cut it, no matter what it is you're doing. In that situation, like in mine, even at room distances $hit happens.Given parctice,lots and lots of practice, I'm betting I would lose that little double hitch bad habit I have when shouldering a shotgun. To be quite frank, I'm a bit scared of the things on the shooting end as well as the other end<----NOT A GOOD THING.
[/quote]
Rae:
I agree with you that you can't count on a one shot stop, even with a shotgun (although the likelihood is a WHOLE lot better with a shotgun than a handgun). Regarding missing, ANY long gun is a whole lot easier to aim than a handgun. The situation that we are talking about here, barricaded in your safe room, puts the goblin in a fatal funnel. As he kicks the door open, even if he moves forward or backward, there is going to be little change of angle from you to him. You won't have to change your point of aim much if at all for followup shots. Believe me, at 10 feet it is incredibly easy to hit the target with a long gun, even under stress.
Take your shotgun to the range. Set up at a distance of 10 feet. Aim the shotgun at the target without using the sights. Make sure the butt is firmly against your shoulder and that the bulk of your weight is on your front foot. Have a friend blow a whistle. When the whistle blows, fire two shots. Repeat this several times. I think you'll find that your first shot will be dead on and your second will be pretty darn close too.
I use my shotgun primarily for deer hunting. For most of the year, it sits unused. I know that I can pick it up and hit the target at 10 feet, even if I haven't used it for 9 months.
It helps to take a shotgun class, which will teach you the proper stance and the proper way to mount the gun. Reduced recoil tactical loads help as well.
But you don't have to train each month just to be able to hit a target at 10 feet with a long gun.
If you're not comfortable with your shotgun, fine don't use it. But it sounds to me as though you just haven't had the required initial training with your shotgun. After some initial training or practice, you don't have to be shooting your shotgun twice a month to hit a target in a funnel at 10 feet. The initial training does not have to be a major amount of time. Long guns are easier to aim than pistols.
Finally, I NEVER said the shotgun is the ultimate home defense gun. It has advantages, particularly in a barricade situation. Long guns are easier to aim than pistols. They also have much greater stopping power. Long guns are also harder to retain, which is a disadvantage if you have to leave your safe room. Long guns are also harder to negotiate narrow hallways with. A handgun is also easier to store discretely in a lock box. Each has advantages and disadvantages, and I never meant to imply anything else.
But for use of a shotgun in a barricade situation, practicing a couple times a year WILL cut it.
M1911
I agree wholeheartedly that you MUST train adequately with a weapon that you select to defend yourself with. This applies to all guns, but is particularly applicable to shotguns shooting buckshot. RAE's description of his shooting experience illustrates the point that all shotguns pattern differently and a given gun patterns differently with different ammunition. In my opinion, no one should put a shotgun in service in his home for defensive use until after it has been patterned with the chosen ammo. Only then will you know at what range you can keep the pellets inside the outline of your particular target.
M1911,
First off, my apology for any implication about the ultimate HD weapon. I didn't mean to imply you personally there. Simply, go into a hundred gun stores and ask what would be best for HD, and probably 98 are going to hand you a pump shotgun, and half of those are going to be a 26" barrel model. Sorry if it sounded otherwise.
Second,on the issue of a safe room and a barricade scenerio. 100% agreement with that. In that scene, the shotgun is second only to a Claymoor (sp), and even that would be open for discussion since the shotgun usually has more than one Bang.
I think in general terms we agree on most points here, it's just the situational events where we differ. Basicly, a shotgun can be the best choice in most situations, however, getting one off the shelf at the store, buying a box of shells and loading it up, without knowwing what it will do, is something that sadly happens to all too many people. Now that happenstace isn't limited to shotguns by any means, it just seems the shotguns or a snub nose revolver, are the most likely to fall under that heading.
*As a side note, you will be happy to hear that I plan on a "shotgun" feast this weekend! I have a bunch of shells to burn up LOL! With any luck, my arm/shoulder will allow me to type,, OR maybe to NOT type
First off, my apology for any implication about the ultimate HD weapon. I didn't mean to imply you personally there. Simply, go into a hundred gun stores and ask what would be best for HD, and probably 98 are going to hand you a pump shotgun, and half of those are going to be a 26" barrel model. Sorry if it sounded otherwise.
Second,on the issue of a safe room and a barricade scenerio. 100% agreement with that. In that scene, the shotgun is second only to a Claymoor (sp), and even that would be open for discussion since the shotgun usually has more than one Bang.
I think in general terms we agree on most points here, it's just the situational events where we differ. Basicly, a shotgun can be the best choice in most situations, however, getting one off the shelf at the store, buying a box of shells and loading it up, without knowwing what it will do, is something that sadly happens to all too many people. Now that happenstace isn't limited to shotguns by any means, it just seems the shotguns or a snub nose revolver, are the most likely to fall under that heading.
*As a side note, you will be happy to hear that I plan on a "shotgun" feast this weekend! I have a bunch of shells to burn up
LOL! With any luck, my arm/shoulder will allow me to type,, OR maybe to NOT type Rae:
Sounds like we are in violent agreement. I don't think the shotgun is the best choice for most situations -- I think it is the best choice for some situations. I agree with you that just buying a shotgun and some shells and then thinking you're all set is a big mistake. Initial training is required.
For this weekend, let me make a couple suggestions. If you already know all of these, then just tell me to take a flying leap...
First, MAKE SURE THE BUTT STOCK IS FIRMLY AGAINST THE POCKET OF YOUR SHOULDER. Some people shy away from their shotguns (understandably so), but if the butt stock is not firmly against your shoulder, then it gets a chance to speed up before it hits your shoulder -- ouch!
As I mentioned before, get in a very aggressive stance, weak side foot well in front of the rear foot. Most of your weight should be on the front foot. Your shoulders should be ahead of your hips. Once you're in that stance, realize that you're not in an aggressive enough stance, so go forward more and deeper.
Keep your strong elbow straight out at 90 degrees. If you let your elbow droop, that collapses the pocket between your shoulder and neck, and lets the butt stock slip towards your shoulder -- ouch.
Get a good cheek weld against the stock. That way your face will move with the shotgun, rather than have an impact.
Finally, I do not wrap my strong hand thumb around the stock. Instead, I point my strong hand thumb straight forward. If I wrap my strong hand thumb around the stock, I tend to punch myself in the nose with it upon recoil. YMMV
M1911
Sounds like we are in violent agreement. I don't think the shotgun is the best choice for most situations -- I think it is the best choice for some situations. I agree with you that just buying a shotgun and some shells and then thinking you're all set is a big mistake. Initial training is required.
For this weekend, let me make a couple suggestions. If you already know all of these, then just tell me to take a flying leap...
First, MAKE SURE THE BUTT STOCK IS FIRMLY AGAINST THE POCKET OF YOUR SHOULDER. Some people shy away from their shotguns (understandably so), but if the butt stock is not firmly against your shoulder, then it gets a chance to speed up before it hits your shoulder -- ouch!
As I mentioned before, get in a very aggressive stance, weak side foot well in front of the rear foot. Most of your weight should be on the front foot. Your shoulders should be ahead of your hips. Once you're in that stance, realize that you're not in an aggressive enough stance, so go forward more and deeper.
Keep your strong elbow straight out at 90 degrees. If you let your elbow droop, that collapses the pocket between your shoulder and neck, and lets the butt stock slip towards your shoulder -- ouch.
Get a good cheek weld against the stock. That way your face will move with the shotgun, rather than have an impact.
Finally, I do not wrap my strong hand thumb around the stock. Instead, I point my strong hand thumb straight forward. If I wrap my strong hand thumb around the stock, I tend to punch myself in the nose with it upon recoil. YMMV
M1911
Greetings,
You may remember that I posted above:
Although I have a shotgun, I rely on a (well, several) loaded pistol for home defense for the same reason you mention: lack of proficiency at the shotgun.
I plan on remedying this in the near future by getting some "tactical" training.
I shoot three rounds of trap almost every weekend, and shoot five slugs and five rounds of buckshot after that. I still don't consider the shotgun a viable home defense weapon for me because (1) I don't think trap shooting is sufficient "combat" training (I might just "sit down" in RAE's words); and (2) I don't want to keep it loaded around my daughter, who is ten, nor do I want to rely on a trigger or cable lock, nor do I want to unload and load it every morning and evening.
I guess when I get a gun safe, or for special social occaisions when nothing else will do, then I will load up the Mossberg. Until then, the pistol sits handy in a lockbox by the bed.
And RAE, are you using a shoulder pad, like made by PAST? Helped me a lot during heavy shooting, as did some recent past threads here started by Dave McC (Proper Mounting Techniques--not as exciting as it sounds).
Regards to all,
Ledbetter
You may remember that I posted above:
Although I have a shotgun, I rely on a (well, several) loaded pistol for home defense for the same reason you mention: lack of proficiency at the shotgun.
I plan on remedying this in the near future by getting some "tactical" training.
I shoot three rounds of trap almost every weekend, and shoot five slugs and five rounds of buckshot after that. I still don't consider the shotgun a viable home defense weapon for me because (1) I don't think trap shooting is sufficient "combat" training (I might just "sit down" in RAE's words); and (2) I don't want to keep it loaded around my daughter, who is ten, nor do I want to rely on a trigger or cable lock, nor do I want to unload and load it every morning and evening.
I guess when I get a gun safe, or for special social occaisions when nothing else will do, then I will load up the Mossberg. Until then, the pistol sits handy in a lockbox by the bed.
And RAE, are you using a shoulder pad, like made by PAST? Helped me a lot during heavy shooting, as did some recent past threads here started by Dave McC (Proper Mounting Techniques--not as exciting as it sounds).
Regards to all,
Ledbetter
Ledbetter,
No, Im nor using anything but the stock 870 w/synthetic adornment ( I wanted something in "Basic Black" to PO Sarah)<--Ohio is a shotgun only State for deer, and on the off chance I ended up one day scoring a Rhino sized deer, and had my mug in the paper w/said deer, I wanted to make a "fashion statement". *sigh* we all have our little daily fantasies, andd since Shania and her cute little middle seems to have gone anti, and Catherine Zeta got an antique organ for a wedding present, my fantasy life is gettin kinda dry <--In answer, roundabout, to the excellent, but un-fantasy-fullfilling mounting techniques. Um, yep, I read them, promptly chased Mrs. RAE around the house till she caught me We had a difference of opinion on the mounting thing....I liked her idea a whole lot better Opps! Back on topic, the Stoeger Coach gun has a wooden stock, sans any type of pad (OUCH!)
No, Im nor using anything but the stock 870 w/synthetic adornment ( I wanted something in "Basic Black" to PO Sarah
)<--Ohio is a shotgun only State for deer, and on the off chance I ended up one day scoring a Rhino sized deer, and had my mug in the paper w/said deer, I wanted to make a "fashion statement". *sigh* we all have our little daily fantasies, andd since Shania and her cute little middle seems to have gone anti, and Catherine Zeta got an antique organ for a wedding present, my fantasy life is gettin kinda dry <--In answer, roundabout, to the excellent, but un-fantasy-fullfilling mounting techniques. Um, yep, I read them, promptly chased Mrs. RAE around the house till she caught me We had a difference of opinion on the mounting thing....I liked her idea a whole lot better Opps! Back on topic, the Stoeger Coach gun has a wooden stock, sans any type of pad (OUCH!)