Should I have a shotgun for Home Defense

M

Monty

New member
This discussion came up on another Gun Forum and I thought I would bring it up over here and see what you all have to say. I am considering a pump shotgun (probably a Mossberg 500) as an additional home defense weapon. Current nightstand duty is a Beretta 92G. I've used a shotgun some in the past and feel pretty comfortable in its operation. Most likely I would not practice with this home defense shotgun more than once a quarter and most likely only once or twice a year. The consensus on the other Forum is that my shotgun skills will be close to zero with that limited amount of practice. So my question is, if I am unwilling to put anymore practice into my shotgun than maybe twice a year, should I avoid adding a shotgun to my home defense battery and stick with my pistol only or is there a benefit to adding a shotgun to the mix even though the experts claim I won't be very good with it (and I do believe they are experts)? I look forward to your responses.

Monty
 
You need the shotgun. Here are the reasons:

1. Pure stopping power - At close distances, handguns will not kill your intruder fast enough. He will stand a high probability of staying alive long enough to kill you back. Who cares if he dies in 5 seconds? At close distance, that is long enough to shoot or stab you. Speed of incapacitation is the key. Handguns kill too slow.

2. Overpenetration of your bullet - Handgun and rifle rounds SAIL right through house walls. Even the Magsafe rounds are not phased by common house materials. I have tested them myself. Who wants win a fight only to learn they killed the little 5 year old girl next store because their .40 cal 165 grain bullet kept going when they missed the bad guy?

3. Hit probability - Of course you have to aim a shotgun. It does take skill to use. However, even if you are not highly trained, you stand a higher chance of getting a hit with a shotgun than with a pistol. It does not take years of experience to hit at 5-10 feet. Also, your target may be moving. Again, the shotgun will be easier to make a hit with. AND, you will probably only fire once. Weapons manipulations skills are important. However, you can build the skill you really need in only a few sessions.

Conclusion - This is not a game where you choose your favorite weapon for fun. It is life and death. I remember what Chuck Taylor said at a class I attended, "What you believe can get you killed". Think carefully about this and chose accordingly.
 
I won't call myself an expert. I have taken a 2-day defensive shotgun class and at LFI-2, they covered shotgun as well.

I think you can be reasonably proficient with a shotgun even without a great deal of practice. You're talking about shooting at very close ranges, so the main thing you need to learn is to properly mount the gun and to not short stroke it. If the shotgun goes dry, do a New York reload (i.e., drop it and grab your 92G).

Do you need a shotgun? No. Is it very useful in some situations? Absolutely. If a home invasion scenario, if you can barricade yourself in a safe room, then a shotgun really comes into its own. Anyone coming through the door would face a load of 00 buck at a distance of 10 feet or so.

M1911
 
Greetings,

Although I have a shotgun, I rely on a (well, several) loaded pistol for home defense for the same reason you mention: lack of proficiency at the shotgun.

I plan on remedying this in the near future by getting some "tactical" training. In any event, due to the possibility of being separated from the shotgun, a pistol should still be employed.

Regards,

Ledbetter
 
A shotgun is a great home defense weapon. Many reasons have already been given, but one I will mention is the pure intimidation factor that might save you from actually having to fire. A bad guy might try to dodge or outdraw you handgun to handgun, but show him the business end of a 12 gauge and any brain cells he owns will start shouting "surrender!" My late brother in law, who was a Deputy in Texas for 30 odd years, said the sight of his Remington 870 could stop a fight before it started.

I see only one drawback to a shotgun for home defense, and that is its length, which makes it less maneuverable. You can compensate by running the shortest legal barrel and $40 at Cheaper Than Dirt will buy you a nylon pistol grip folding stock with matching forearm.

Tactical shotgun training is really important for LEOs who will have to use them on the move and in unfamiliar surroundings. I'd think it would be less critical for a homeowner defending his own territory. The big issue would be weapon retention, it's esier for a bad guy to grab a long gun than a hand gun. Otherwise, just point the end with the hole at the bad guys and go boom till no more bad guys.

One suggestion if you do choose a shotgun. Hang a flashlight on it. There are adapter mounts available, and with a little focus tuning you can set it up so that anything in the flashlight beam has a high probability of catching pellets. At home defense distances of about 15 feet max, this is almost as good as using the sights.
 
I think you've gotten a lot of good responses here. My two cents:

1. For home defense, the role of a shotgun for someone who already owns a handgun is generally limited to aiming at the door of your saferoom after you've barricaded yourself into place.

If you are forced to "clear" your house (i.e., to gather the spouse and kids into the saferoom) you use the handgun, not the shotgun. Thus, the disadvantage of the shotgun's length becomes irrelevant to manuverability if your shotgun is not used for such purposes.

While training and practice are paramount to any shooting skill, do you think you will be ineffective in using a scattergun at a goblin coming through your door while you are ensconced behind hard cover with your gun pointed at said goblin (who will probably be standing dumbfounded in the fatal funnel when you drop the hammer on him)? Vegas would probably give you pretty good odds....

And as mentioned, the scattergun at HD ranges has a marked advantage in stopping power against human targets. While we never assume 100% stopping power, I'd give the nod to a 12 gauge 00 buck shell than my own Glock 23 loaded with 155 grain Hydra-Shoks.

2. Overpenetration is a concern with any firearm but with shotguns (assuming the right load is used), overpenetration and downrange hazard can be reduced.

Remember that buckshot and birdshot are spheres -- spheres are not very aerodynamic when compared to the football-like profiles of most handgun and rifle bullets. Thus, pellets will lose kinetic energy more rapidly as they go downrange, relative to handgun and rifle bullets.

3. Second the recommendation to add a light to your gun. Rule #4 says you gotta know your target and what's beyond it. A lot of HD situations probably happen in darkness. Whether it's a Surefire Responder or a MagLite hose-clamped to your magazine tube, trying to fumble with a hand-held light and a long arm (which requires two hands) is a PITA.

Justin

------------------
Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
 
Whenever possible, longarms should be used for serious social purposes.

The stock aids in producing more accurate fire, even if one does not line up the sights.

The longer sight radius tends to increase practical accuracy.

Longarms are typically more powerful.

Though perhaps not a factor for most people, I regularly train with impact weapons about the size of a shotgun. Even unloaded, it makes an effective close-quarters weapon. Try that with your malfunctioning Sigma!

In short, yes. Get the shotgun.

Please remember that practice does not necessarily mean taking the firearm to the range. You can make your skill much greater by safe dry-fire practice for 5 minutes, once or twice a week. With an unloaded weapon, practice smoooooooothly presenting the sg from the low ready posture. As the slow swing becomes very easy and natural, increase the speed.
 
Great point Spectre. Duh. I forgot to mention Dry fire practice. That is the best thing you can do to stay sharp. In some ways, it is better than actually shooting the gun. You can eliminate flinching and concentrate on sight picture, sight alignment and trigger control.
 
Humm.... the amount of training with what ever you chose to defend yourself will pretty much reflect how much you think your life is worth. i try to put a minimum of 100 rounds a month down range with a shot gun.... it is much more complicated to work than a pistol such as a beretta. I have trained with Erik Lawerence of blackheart international he is a superb marksman as well as tactical shooter www.blackheart.org i will let you know when he gets back in town, but i suggest Pistol training as well as shot gun training, one weapon can't do it all. they can cross over in a pinch, but for my house, i will take a shotgun and a pistol on my side.
 
I'm with Justin on this. If you're barricaded in your safe room, with the shotgun pointed at the door, I don't really see the need for a huge amount of training or practice.

More training is good, but I really don't see it as all that necessary in that sort of situation. As long as one can properly mount the gun and pump the action, they've got 5 very powerful shots. No need to bother with trying learning how to speed reload -- just grab the pistol (in the unlikely even there's a need for more after 5 shotgun rounds).

M1911
 
I said what I have to on the "Other" BB, Monty. Let me reprise....

I have considerable problems with ANYONE, using ANYTHING they only shoot once or three times a year to defend themselves with, especially if they live nearby. I DO believe that a reasonable amount of training will result in ANYONE, sane and co-ordinated enough to dress themselves, being dangerous only to the right people. And reasonable means knowing the weapon, knowing the limitations and knowing how and when to use same and how and when not. That doesn't happen in a trip or two to the range yearly.

A shotgun is a marvelouly effective tool in trained hands. Otherwise, it's a tragedy waiting to happen.
 
I really want to reply to a few of these postings and keep this thread going a bit longer but I'll be away from the board until Monday. I'll be jumping back in then with some additional questions. Thanks and keep it going.

Monty
 
Why the aversion to practicing?

I do receomend you pic up the Mossberg. I really like the one I customized.

What you do need to do however, is practice maneuvering with it inside your home, cutting the pie, etc.

Oh, and go practice.
 
Yes, have a shotgun for home defense - as the fifth layer behind 1} adequate window and door security, 2} lighting & observation before opening the door to strangers, 3} at least two large territorial defensive dogs, 4} the house having a reputation of armed occupants
THEN
when all the above fails
let'em have it with a few rounds of birdshot followed up, as needed, with buckshot!

But since your shotgun is apt to be somewhere else in the house when the door gets kicked in, have a handgun at your side or on your person but NOT on the nightstand or under your pillow when you're not home because if you come home to an intruder, then THEY will have your gun!
 
Working around the criminal element for the last 20 years I've met quite a few who will proudly show you all of the numerous handgun wound scars they wear. These have included "serious" calibers such as the .45 ACP and I've even seen some good center mass hits. But, I've yet to meet the crook who points out a center mass 00 buckshot wound.

The latest AMA studies suggest that 80% of people shot with handguns survive the event. This study considers all handgun calibers.

The point is; some folks just aren't real impressed with the fact that you've shot them with a handgun and may fail to immediately cease hostilities once shot.

We carry handguns because they're light, portable, unobtrusive, and easily concealed. Thus, they're always available as immediate defensive tools when danger presents itself suddenly and a more effective fighting tool is unavailable. However, if forwarned of danger, or if concealment and portability isn't an issue, such as in home defense, it would be ill advised to rely only on a handgun when more effective fighting tools are available.

Buy the shotgun, mount a light on it, and train with it.

------------------
CQB Solutions
Equipment, training, & technology for law enforcement & corrections tactical teams.
cqbsolutions.com
info@cqbsolutions.com
 
Awesome answer! Reminds me of what I learned after 7 years becoming a black belt in Karate - some people can take a punch. They aren't impressed, they grab you and the fight goes to the ground. I have since learned Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

Gunfighting or martial arts - it is all about submission. What would seem to work in theory does not always work in real life.
 
By all means get the shotgun. I believe if you know you're going to a gunfight take a rifle but since a 5.56 NATO round will over penatrate my choice is a 12 ga. with #4 buck.

Do I have a handgun to use yes, but only because my wife is confortable shooting the 5904 (9 Para). My choice is the 870 if I have time to get it.

Turk
 
{{Sorry but I decided it was wise to delete the post this one linked to}}Monty

[This message has been edited by Monty (edited October 10, 2000).]
 
Monty,
I'm no expert, or even close to one. In fact I'm as far away from an expert as you can get. So why bother listening you say? Well, the fact that I know so little made me rely on others for their opinions, pretty much like yourself, w/respect to buying a shotgun. Even the much praised 12ga w/00 buck is nothing more than 9 to 12 "hits" with a .32. Like Dave syas, in trained hands a 12 ga is devasting. In my hands, it depends a lot on the shotgun. I have 3 right now, a 20 ga Browning pump, a Rem 870 and a Stoeger 12ga SXS Coach gun. 2 weeks ago, I took the SXS out with a box of S&B 00 buck, just for the fun of it. At 25 yards, the best I could do was 1 pellet on a paper plate. Pretty sad on my part. The bruise on my arm ( note arm-not shoulder) is just about gone now. My conclusion is the Coach Gun is pretty to look at, but in my hands, it's a detriment. OTOH, the 870, while not a pleasure to shoot, is far more manageable. Using the S&B loads, I get an 8" pattern, centered on a paper plate at 25 yards. The downside is that it takes me a considerable amount of time to line everything up. Now contrast this to say my CZ75. I can place roughly 6 shots into the same area, in the same amount of time. Or even my Winchester .45LC Trapper, which can get 3 shots into that area in the same amount of time. Bottom line is, I'm glad I bought all 3, but until I get better with the 870, it is one of the last guns I would use for HD. Since finding a place to shoot the shotgun is harder than finding a place to shoot the others, I don't see much hope for the shotgun(870) at present.(It's simply too much noise and muzzle blast for an indoor range, and it tears up the backstop of the outdoor range, so the owner discourages using them). Once or twice a year isn't going to cut it w/anything. BUT!!! The prices are not likely to go anywhere but up. That being said, if you have the $$,and you have the desire, get one NOW! Worry about practice later. In the meantime, use what you're best with. I would prefer something a bit more potent than a 9mm, but the CZ is proving to be the best I have at present. Best of luck.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAE:
Using the S&B loads, I get an 8" pattern, centered on a paper plate at 25 yards. The downside is that it takes me a considerable amount of time to line everything up. Now contrast this to say my CZ75. I can place roughly 6 shots into the same area, in the same amount of time. Or even my Winchester .45LC Trapper, which can get 3 shots into that area in the same amount of time. Bottom line is, I'm glad I bought all 3, but until I get better with the 870, it is one of the last guns I would use for HD.[/quote]

Rae:

Everyone has to decide for themselves what is best for them. I'm certainly not going to tell you what you should or shouldn't use. But I think that perhaps we are envisioning different scenarios.

If you can round up your loved ones into a safe room, close and lock the door, then the shotgun comes into its own. You won't be 25 yards from the door unless you're living in a castle. You'll be 10 - 15 feet from the door, behind cover, with the shotgun pointed at the door. If possible, you have a light shining at the door as well, to blind Mr. Goblin.

At that distance, you really don't need to use the sights on the shotgun. No, I'm not saying that the shot spread will be appreciable at that distance -- it won't. I'm saying that the natural pointing ability of the shotgun will be close enough at that distance.

If Mr. Goblin breaks down the door, all you do is pull the trigger. There's no way you can convince me that you'll shoot him 6 times with your CZ75 in the same amount of time that it takes you to pull the trigger once on your shotgun.

You don't need to be accurate to 25 yards with your shotgun for in-home defense unless you live in a castle.

Yes, I agree that training and practice are good. But you don't have to be Gabe Suarez to pulverize Mr. Goblin with a shotgun if he puts himself in the fatal funnel.

M1911
 
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