Should I get a KSG or an SBS?
- Thread starter TruthTellers
- Start date
Also, if you are going to dump the magazine, might want to watch out...
If that is something that a shooter must do, get a SMT Tactical choke adapter off eBay. Puts some distance ahead of the muzzle, and gets you Remington chokes.
Dfariswheel
New member
I just bought a KSG a few weeks ago.
The working parts of the gun are heavy steel, with a good glass fiber bearing nylon based plastic used for the non-critical stock and forearm parts.
It's a good, solid feeling gun with none of the cheesy lightweight feel I expected or any soft, fragile feeling plastic.
I've done a 100% strip except for the magazine tubes and everything is well thought out and very well built from quality materials.
NOTE: I strongly recommend NOT attempting to disassemble the trigger unit.
Even for an experienced person this is a bear to get back together and I suspect that Kel-Tec use a special holding fixture to position and hold the parts during assembly.
There is video online showing disassembly, but note that there doesn't seem to be any on RE-assembly. There's a reason for that.
In any case, there's really no reason to disassemble the trigger unit since trigger pull is entirely suitable for this type of shotgun
As with many new guns it can benefit from a "fluff and buff" of a few key areas and some good grease on some parts to ease friction.
You can get the same effect from just using the gun.
With either the gun smooths up very well and becomes much easier to operate effectively.
As one person commented, don't look at the KSG as a switch-magazine shotgun, look at it like a 7 round pump gun with the worlds fastest reload.
Switching back and forth of the magazines isn't practical because unless you practice like a SEAL you're going to get some confusion between the mags and what's in the chamber and make a mistake.
Plus, if you need a shell from the other mag, you're going to have to dump the good round that's in the chamber, loosing it.
In short, shoot the one magazine until empty, then flip the switch to feed the other magazine.
For accessories, one very popular one is an extended switch to change from one magazine tube to the other.
I looked at those but because they stick out so far from the bottom of the receiver, I'd be worried that a bump could easily catch it and break it off.
Good accessories are the various hand stops like the excellent Magpul and the Magpul vertical front grip.
Unlike many other grips, the Magpul spreads the load over a wider area and lightens the stress on the lower plastic rail.
Kel-Tec states that they've upgraded the lower rail area to prevent breaking it off like happened with an early gun.
An excellent accessory is the Kel-Tec extra thick recoil pad. This reduces felt recoil much better then the standard pad that comes on the gun.
https://www.keltecweapons.com/shotguns/ksg
In looking at the KSG and the DP-12 it's apparent that the same people have a hand in both guns, even though they're made by two different companies.
The designs are both take-offs of the Ithaca Model 37 and both share at lease a couple of parts. The double magazine design is the same on both with very minor differences in some parts.
Reading the owner's manuals shows that some areas have exactly the same words in both manuals, indicating that they were written by the same people.
I'm not clear what the relationship is, but it's fairly obvious there is one.
The KSG is in use with apparently some prison Response Teams, is in use with a South Korean Special ops unit, and I wouldn't be the slightest surprised if you'd find the KSG in most American Special Ops armories.
No military or law enforcement unit is going to buy a junk gun, so the KSG has arrived as a quality shotgun.
People talk about "Gen 1, and Gen 2" KSG's but Kel-Tec says there are no Generations. They simply added corrections and upgrades to the production as they became available.
Whatever, the current KSG has solved all the early problems.
With that said, the major issue with the KSG, and all other bullpup pump shotguns is is operator induced stoppages: Short stroking.
Due to the very short length, the pump handle is so close to the body it's easy to short stroke it and cause a failure to feed.
The shell release into the receiver happens in the very last 1/4 inch of the pump handle's movement and it may feel like the handle is all the way to the rear when it's not, resulting in a failure to feed.
There is some slight resistance to overcome in order to pull the handle all the way back to feed the next round.
A lesser operator issue is failing to push the handle all the way forward.
The next shell in the magazine is staged to move to the feed position when the handle is pushed the last 1/4 inch forward.
What you see on the videos is people trying to run the gun just as fast as possible and causing short stroking or starting the handle back before it's pushed all the way forward to stage the next shell.
There is some resistance on both strokes in the last 1/4 inch of movement and until you get used to the feel, it's easy to mistake the resistance as full movement.
Many people recommend operating the gun as hard as you can pump it back and forth, but all that's needed is a firm pull all the way to the rear and all the way to the front.
If you do some slower practice before attempting to make it sound like a full-auto weapon you'll quickly get the feel and can speed up.
In most cases, firing a shotgun as fast as the videos attempt is seldom necessary and can cause operator induced failures.
In my opinion and admittedly short term experience, the KSG is a quality, reliable gun when operated correctly.
It uses quality materials, and an interesting design solution to the use of double magazine tubes and a bullpup design.
The working parts of the gun are heavy steel, with a good glass fiber bearing nylon based plastic used for the non-critical stock and forearm parts.
It's a good, solid feeling gun with none of the cheesy lightweight feel I expected or any soft, fragile feeling plastic.
I've done a 100% strip except for the magazine tubes and everything is well thought out and very well built from quality materials.
NOTE: I strongly recommend NOT attempting to disassemble the trigger unit.
Even for an experienced person this is a bear to get back together and I suspect that Kel-Tec use a special holding fixture to position and hold the parts during assembly.
There is video online showing disassembly, but note that there doesn't seem to be any on RE-assembly. There's a reason for that.
In any case, there's really no reason to disassemble the trigger unit since trigger pull is entirely suitable for this type of shotgun
As with many new guns it can benefit from a "fluff and buff" of a few key areas and some good grease on some parts to ease friction.
You can get the same effect from just using the gun.
With either the gun smooths up very well and becomes much easier to operate effectively.
As one person commented, don't look at the KSG as a switch-magazine shotgun, look at it like a 7 round pump gun with the worlds fastest reload.
Switching back and forth of the magazines isn't practical because unless you practice like a SEAL you're going to get some confusion between the mags and what's in the chamber and make a mistake.
Plus, if you need a shell from the other mag, you're going to have to dump the good round that's in the chamber, loosing it.
In short, shoot the one magazine until empty, then flip the switch to feed the other magazine.
For accessories, one very popular one is an extended switch to change from one magazine tube to the other.
I looked at those but because they stick out so far from the bottom of the receiver, I'd be worried that a bump could easily catch it and break it off.
Good accessories are the various hand stops like the excellent Magpul and the Magpul vertical front grip.
Unlike many other grips, the Magpul spreads the load over a wider area and lightens the stress on the lower plastic rail.
Kel-Tec states that they've upgraded the lower rail area to prevent breaking it off like happened with an early gun.
An excellent accessory is the Kel-Tec extra thick recoil pad. This reduces felt recoil much better then the standard pad that comes on the gun.
https://www.keltecweapons.com/shotguns/ksg
In looking at the KSG and the DP-12 it's apparent that the same people have a hand in both guns, even though they're made by two different companies.
The designs are both take-offs of the Ithaca Model 37 and both share at lease a couple of parts. The double magazine design is the same on both with very minor differences in some parts.
Reading the owner's manuals shows that some areas have exactly the same words in both manuals, indicating that they were written by the same people.
I'm not clear what the relationship is, but it's fairly obvious there is one.
The KSG is in use with apparently some prison Response Teams, is in use with a South Korean Special ops unit, and I wouldn't be the slightest surprised if you'd find the KSG in most American Special Ops armories.
No military or law enforcement unit is going to buy a junk gun, so the KSG has arrived as a quality shotgun.
People talk about "Gen 1, and Gen 2" KSG's but Kel-Tec says there are no Generations. They simply added corrections and upgrades to the production as they became available.
Whatever, the current KSG has solved all the early problems.
With that said, the major issue with the KSG, and all other bullpup pump shotguns is is operator induced stoppages: Short stroking.
Due to the very short length, the pump handle is so close to the body it's easy to short stroke it and cause a failure to feed.
The shell release into the receiver happens in the very last 1/4 inch of the pump handle's movement and it may feel like the handle is all the way to the rear when it's not, resulting in a failure to feed.
There is some slight resistance to overcome in order to pull the handle all the way back to feed the next round.
A lesser operator issue is failing to push the handle all the way forward.
The next shell in the magazine is staged to move to the feed position when the handle is pushed the last 1/4 inch forward.
What you see on the videos is people trying to run the gun just as fast as possible and causing short stroking or starting the handle back before it's pushed all the way forward to stage the next shell.
There is some resistance on both strokes in the last 1/4 inch of movement and until you get used to the feel, it's easy to mistake the resistance as full movement.
Many people recommend operating the gun as hard as you can pump it back and forth, but all that's needed is a firm pull all the way to the rear and all the way to the front.
If you do some slower practice before attempting to make it sound like a full-auto weapon you'll quickly get the feel and can speed up.
In most cases, firing a shotgun as fast as the videos attempt is seldom necessary and can cause operator induced failures.
In my opinion and admittedly short term experience, the KSG is a quality, reliable gun when operated correctly.
It uses quality materials, and an interesting design solution to the use of double magazine tubes and a bullpup design.
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TruthTellers
New member
^ Thanks for the input Dfariswheel, you spent a good amount of time on it.
Unlike other Kel Tec guns, I can't sit here and say for $700 Kel Tec is putting out a junk gun. $700 for a shotgun is up in the high end Mossberg 590 and Remington 870 range, so I don't expect that Kel Tec would sell it for that much, but give it a PF9 or CMR22 result. I can tell with the price tag and the fit and finish that they put the work into the KSG.
Others will bemoan that "it aint got no wood on it... BARF!" or "dat's a lotta plastic" but they're the type that would take a flintlock over a Glock in a gun fight.
My only experience with a Kel Tec has been a Gen 1 Sub 2000 and it's been fine. I've heard things said that when it comes to Kel Tec, their handguns are hit or miss, but their long guns are generally solid. I have no question that the KSG is quality, but the 500/590 and 870 shotguns have decades of rough use under their designs.
The one thing the KSG has is it's as small a shotgun one can get that isn't NFA registered and won't be a problem crossing state lines with.
Unlike other Kel Tec guns, I can't sit here and say for $700 Kel Tec is putting out a junk gun. $700 for a shotgun is up in the high end Mossberg 590 and Remington 870 range, so I don't expect that Kel Tec would sell it for that much, but give it a PF9 or CMR22 result. I can tell with the price tag and the fit and finish that they put the work into the KSG.
Others will bemoan that "it aint got no wood on it... BARF!" or "dat's a lotta plastic" but they're the type that would take a flintlock over a Glock in a gun fight.
My only experience with a Kel Tec has been a Gen 1 Sub 2000 and it's been fine. I've heard things said that when it comes to Kel Tec, their handguns are hit or miss, but their long guns are generally solid. I have no question that the KSG is quality, but the 500/590 and 870 shotguns have decades of rough use under their designs.
The one thing the KSG has is it's as small a shotgun one can get that isn't NFA registered and won't be a problem crossing state lines with.
Of course, if Kel-Tec quality has you concerned, there is this one:
http://www.stdgun.com/dp-12-double-barrel-pump-shotgun/
http://www.stdgun.com/dp-12-double-barrel-pump-shotgun/
Dfariswheel
New member
The DP-12 also has a range of opinions on it on quality and reliability.
It's heavy and expensive, much more so then the KSG.
As I said, there's some sort of connection between the Kel-Tec and the DP-12.
Both share some similar features, a few parts, and owner's manuals that use much of the exact same wording.
One strong feature of the KSG is that Kel-Tec actually found an answer to the usual bullpup gun's trigger issues.
Most Bullpup firearms put the sear and other trigger action parts at the rear of the gun, with the grip and actual trigger up at the balance point.
These have a long trigger bar to connect to the sear at the rear of the receiver, which gives an unavoidably poor, mushy trigger with lots of trigger take up and creep.
Kel-Tec designed the KSG to have the entire trigger and sear assembly up in the grip section with only the actual hammer itself at the rear.
This gives a much better trigger then most bullpup designs.
There is a small amount of take up and some gritty creep, but the grittiness seems to wear in after some use.
In any case, while rifle bullpup users would probably complain about the KSG trigger, it's no issue at all in a combat shotgun like the KSG.
One factor about the KSG, DP-12 and other similar shotguns is that "short is in" and that looks like the direction that new defense shotguns are going to go.
For over 100 years a combat shotgun has been nothing much more then a standard sporting shotgun with a short barrel and some add-on features like a barrel shroud.
Guns like the South African bullpup shotgun designs and now the KSG and DP-12 have redefined what's possible in a combat/defense shotgun.
It's hard for a standard length shotgun to match the 26 inch KSG unless you remove the stock and install a pistol grip.
That reduces the effective speed of use due to no stock to brace with.
The bullpup gives the advantages of a very short length and a buttstock with the effectiveness of a full size gun.
In an attempt to stay current, both Mossberg and Remington are releasing BATF-beating 14 inch barreled shotguns that are basically copies of the Remington 870 US Marshal Witness Protection shotguns.
However, they're still nothing more then a pistol grip-only shotgun, just with a shorter then normal barrel.
An added push for these bullpup types of guns is the obvious quality and thought that went into the KSG.
I also have heard a lot of complaints about Kel-Tec pistols so I never bothered to look at one.
Whatever the lack of quality in their pistols, the same issues are not present in the current KSG.
It feels like a very solid gun and it is.
For those who like the idea of a bullpup shotgun but not the price, there's a kit that converts a standard Mossberg or Remington 870 to a bullpup.
This puts you into a bullpup gun at a much lower price if you already have a 870 or Mossberg handy.
This requires no alteration at all to the gun so it can be converted back at will.
The only problem I see with the conversion kit is that in order to do a good cleaning of the gun you have to pretty well totally disassemble the entire conversion.
Since the nuts that the assembly screws screw into are molded into the stock, a stripped nut might be a real issue.
Some buyers of the conversion say that it benefits greatly by light sanding of mold joints to remove "flash".
I almost bought the kit instead of the KSG, but decided to go with the KSG.
I did and do very much like the idea of a standard 870 pump gun's reliability and fail proof feeding in a bullpup configuration.
https://www.bullpuparmory.com/BU870_Bullpup_Shotgun_Kit_p/bpu-870.htm
It's heavy and expensive, much more so then the KSG.
As I said, there's some sort of connection between the Kel-Tec and the DP-12.
Both share some similar features, a few parts, and owner's manuals that use much of the exact same wording.
One strong feature of the KSG is that Kel-Tec actually found an answer to the usual bullpup gun's trigger issues.
Most Bullpup firearms put the sear and other trigger action parts at the rear of the gun, with the grip and actual trigger up at the balance point.
These have a long trigger bar to connect to the sear at the rear of the receiver, which gives an unavoidably poor, mushy trigger with lots of trigger take up and creep.
Kel-Tec designed the KSG to have the entire trigger and sear assembly up in the grip section with only the actual hammer itself at the rear.
This gives a much better trigger then most bullpup designs.
There is a small amount of take up and some gritty creep, but the grittiness seems to wear in after some use.
In any case, while rifle bullpup users would probably complain about the KSG trigger, it's no issue at all in a combat shotgun like the KSG.
One factor about the KSG, DP-12 and other similar shotguns is that "short is in" and that looks like the direction that new defense shotguns are going to go.
For over 100 years a combat shotgun has been nothing much more then a standard sporting shotgun with a short barrel and some add-on features like a barrel shroud.
Guns like the South African bullpup shotgun designs and now the KSG and DP-12 have redefined what's possible in a combat/defense shotgun.
It's hard for a standard length shotgun to match the 26 inch KSG unless you remove the stock and install a pistol grip.
That reduces the effective speed of use due to no stock to brace with.
The bullpup gives the advantages of a very short length and a buttstock with the effectiveness of a full size gun.
In an attempt to stay current, both Mossberg and Remington are releasing BATF-beating 14 inch barreled shotguns that are basically copies of the Remington 870 US Marshal Witness Protection shotguns.
However, they're still nothing more then a pistol grip-only shotgun, just with a shorter then normal barrel.
An added push for these bullpup types of guns is the obvious quality and thought that went into the KSG.
I also have heard a lot of complaints about Kel-Tec pistols so I never bothered to look at one.
Whatever the lack of quality in their pistols, the same issues are not present in the current KSG.
It feels like a very solid gun and it is.
For those who like the idea of a bullpup shotgun but not the price, there's a kit that converts a standard Mossberg or Remington 870 to a bullpup.
This puts you into a bullpup gun at a much lower price if you already have a 870 or Mossberg handy.
This requires no alteration at all to the gun so it can be converted back at will.
The only problem I see with the conversion kit is that in order to do a good cleaning of the gun you have to pretty well totally disassemble the entire conversion.
Since the nuts that the assembly screws screw into are molded into the stock, a stripped nut might be a real issue.
Some buyers of the conversion say that it benefits greatly by light sanding of mold joints to remove "flash".
I almost bought the kit instead of the KSG, but decided to go with the KSG.
I did and do very much like the idea of a standard 870 pump gun's reliability and fail proof feeding in a bullpup configuration.
https://www.bullpuparmory.com/BU870_Bullpup_Shotgun_Kit_p/bpu-870.htm
Kel-Tec fluff and buff
I bought a Kel-Tec P11 as a more compact alternative to my Glock 19.
That was an error in judgement as it does not carry any better than my G19. It is smaller, but just about as thick. For IWB carry the thickness made it no better than the Glock comfort wise.
Not trying to drift the thread, just commenting on the necessity of doing a fluff and buff on a new Kel-tec. Mine was slightly used, I suspect the original purchaser was not ready for full house 9mm recoil in a pocket pistol. The fact that it jammed every 3rd round or so prompted it's return to the fun store.
I got it cheap, and discovered it's finicky habits at the first trip to the range. Found a good article on the web about doing the Kel-Tec fluff and buff and did the deed in a couple hours. Yes i used a Dremel but only to polish the feed ramp.
The little Kel-Tec has been flawless since. Good enough I sold it to my son for his nightstand gun, only because it did not fit my intended purpose.It helped fund one of the jewels of my accumulation, my 1918 LC Smith SBT. It is the 2nd oldest SBT known to the LC Smith.org folks. Gorgeous gun and still smashes the targets. How's that for coming back from thread drift?
I bought a Kel-Tec P11 as a more compact alternative to my Glock 19.
That was an error in judgement as it does not carry any better than my G19. It is smaller, but just about as thick. For IWB carry the thickness made it no better than the Glock comfort wise.
Not trying to drift the thread, just commenting on the necessity of doing a fluff and buff on a new Kel-tec. Mine was slightly used, I suspect the original purchaser was not ready for full house 9mm recoil in a pocket pistol. The fact that it jammed every 3rd round or so prompted it's return to the fun store.
I got it cheap, and discovered it's finicky habits at the first trip to the range. Found a good article on the web about doing the Kel-Tec fluff and buff and did the deed in a couple hours. Yes i used a Dremel but only to polish the feed ramp.
The little Kel-Tec has been flawless since. Good enough I sold it to my son for his nightstand gun, only because it did not fit my intended purpose.It helped fund one of the jewels of my accumulation, my 1918 LC Smith SBT. It is the 2nd oldest SBT known to the LC Smith.org folks. Gorgeous gun and still smashes the targets. How's that for coming back from thread drift?
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