Should a pistol be aimed or pointed?

[Frank Ettin]

...I wonder if Jeff Cooper and others who formed the Southwest Pistol League, and Greg Morrison, have ever been involved in an actual handgun defensive situation.....

As kozak6 mentioned Jeff Cooper had reported using a handgun in real life encounters in WWII and Korea. I'm not sure about some of the others, although a number of the participants had law enforcement or military experience. Jack Weaver was a participant, and he was an L. A. County deputy sheriff. It the name sounds familiar it might be because he pioneered the use of the Weaver Stance.

When Jeff Cooper started Gunsite as a place to train private citizens as well as military and police in the Modern Technique it was his practice to employ instructors with substantial real world military and/or police experience. That tradition continues today, as one can see by reviewing the CVs of the current crew of Gunsite instructors.

When I took my first class there in 2002 the instructors, in addition to Jeff Cooper were Ed Head, Dave Harris, and Ed Stock. The first two are still on the roster. Ed Stock retired last year after 37 years at Gunsite (and concurrent service as an Arizona State Trooper).

When I was last at Gunsite, a few years ago for Intermediate Handgun, we did a number of point shooting exercises at very near targets in addition to using the sights for other exercises. And I can assure you that when we did our serious shooting (e. g., 2 rounds COM at seven yards in 1.5 seconds -- drawing from the holster and moving "off=the=X") we saw our front sights.

The flash sight-picture involves a glimpse of the sight-picture sufficient to confirm alignment....The target shooter’s gaze at the front sight has proven inappropriate for the bulk of pistol fighting. However, the practical shooter must start at this level and work up to the flash, which becomes reflexive as motor skills are refined. With practice, a consistent firing platform and firing stroke align the sights effortlessly. This index to the target eventually becomes an instantaneous confirmation of the sight-picture.

Pretty much another way of saying "instinct" shooting.

No, not really.

We really do see the front sight and confirm sight alignment. But with a practiced flash sight picture we don't have to search for sight alignment. With practice one can simply bring the gun up to his face, and the sights will be aligned. This is sometimes referred to as the natural point of aim and becomes reflexive with practice. But we still focus on the front sight through the trigger press.

 

[stephen426]

I really believe that depends on the range. If you are at bad breath distance, point shooting should more than suffice. We practice shooting shooting from retention in the practical shooting club I am in. It is kind of hard to aim when the gun is practically in your arm pit. With practice, making solid hits at 5 yards with point shooting should be easy. Once distances get past 7 yards, you should switch to aimed fire. If there are a lot of bystanders, you have to balance your speed with aimed fire. Don't make the news in a bad way.

I believe one of the most important things is practicing with what you carry to develop the muscle memory to the point where the gun becomes an extension of your hand. Dry fire works perfectly fine if you don't have time to go to the range all the time. It is also great for practicing your draw from concealment and getting on target quickly.

I also recommend practicing with an airsoft that is as close to your carry gun as possible. I practice from low ready and bring the gun onto the target as quickly as I can. After doing that for a while, tape the sights and let the feel of the gun in you hand and muscle memory

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Here is my current dilemma and the reason I started this thread: The outdoor public range where I practice has metal targets at 35, 50, and 100 yds. and paper target holders at 7 yds. I've been mostly doing slow fire practice at 7 yds, aiming at a 2 inch target, but I don't currently see that as practical in an actual gunfight....

Consider some professional training. I think Gunsite is top notch, but it's expensive. I've heard some critical comments about Front Sight from folks who have wide experience, but it can be satisfactory for a beginning class; and one can also find good deals on classes.

Look for some local clubs hosting USPSA or IDPA competition. You can learn a lot about some basic skill (target acquisition, shooting quickly and accurately, moving safely with a loaded gun, etc.) that way.

 

[WVsig]

I think people get way to hung up on the front sight and perfect sight picture and "aiming" the gun. Trigger control is 70% of shooting. If you can control the trigger with a "controlled jerk" or "controlled slap" vs jerking it off target you will get positive hits regardless of sight picture at defensive pistol distances.

You can go to any range in the USA and watch people focusing on their front sight getting that perfect sight picture and then having that "NOW" moment and jerk the trigger like a misbehaving dog on a leash. We have had the concept of "perfect" sight picture drilled into our head that it causes too many shooters to jerk the trigger "NOW". The other thing you will see is people trying to do the perfect trigger press to the rear which in a defensive situation will be too slow. It will get you killed.

I think that people need to be able to see a good sight picture. You need to be able to hit your target with that sight picture at defensive shooting distances, typically within 10 yards, but you don't need to aim it like a rifle. A proper grip, draw and trigger control are going to get you positive hits.

I think more and more defensive trainers are "embracing the wobble". The reality is that your sight picture is going to wobble. You cannot hold it out there and hold a perfect sight picture with perfect sight alignment and not have that "NOW" moment. Professional shooters avoid jerking the the trigger off alignment with a controlled slap and by using really light triggers but your avg shooter with an avg defensive trigger in the 4lb to 6lb range is going to jerk the gun off target during that "NOW" moment if they are looking for a perfect sight picture. You see it all the time at the range even when people are slow firing. It only gets worse when you speed them up.

Here is a good video by Rob Leatham showing what I am talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij7u-e0Z4EU

Here is another great one with Leatham and Pincus that relate directly to what I am talking about. Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn do this in their training. The "wobble" you see is exaggerated but at 10 yards the if you have good trigger control your shots will not move outside an area the size of a grapefruit. The "wobble" of the gun and the front sight do not matter if you know how to press the trigger to the rear without "jerking" it off the target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNB7c58Cul0&list=PLTA5eZBBe1pXnAMVl53fAYwHcyU8ODXOU&index=18

 

[Frank Ettin]

1. Yes, the first principle of accurate shooting is trigger control: a smooth press straight back on the trigger with only the trigger finger moving. Maintain your focus on the front sight (or the reticle if using a scope) as you press the trigger, increasing pressure on the trigger until the shot breaks. Don't try to predict exactly when the gun will go off nor try to cause the shot to break at a particular moment. This is what Jeff Cooper called the "surprise break."
   
   
2. One wants to place his finger on the trigger in a manner that facilitates that. Usually, the best place for the finger to contact the trigger will be the middle of the portion of the finger between the first knuckle and the fingertip, and that part of the finger should be perpendicular to the direction in which the trigger moves.
   
   
   • With some triggers, e. g., heavy double action triggers with a long travel, that placement might not provide enough leverage to work the trigger smoothly. In such cases, the trigger may be placed at the first joint.
     
     
   • In either case, the trigger finger needs to be curved away from the gun sufficiently to allow it to press the trigger straight back without the trigger finger binding or applying lateral pressure to the gun. If one has to reach too far to get his finger properly on the trigger (or turn the gun to the point that the axis of the barrel is significantly misaligned with the forearm), the gun is too big. (For example, I have a short trigger reach and can't properly shoot some handguns, like N frame Smith & Wesson revolvers double action.)
   
   
3. By keeping focus on the front sight (or reticle) and increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun essentially shoots itself, you don’t anticipate the shot breaking. But if you try to make the shot break at that one instant in time when everything seem steady and aligned, you usually wind up jerking the trigger.
   
   
4. Of course the gun will wobble a bit on the target. It is just not possible to hold the gun absolutely steady. Because you are alive, there will always be a slight movement caused by all the tiny movement associated with being alive: your heart beating; tiny muscular movements necessary to maintain your balance, etc. Try not to worry about the wobble and don’t worry about trying to keep the sight aligned on a single point. Just let the front sight be somewhere in a small, imaginary box in the center of the target. And of course, properly using some form of rest will also help minimize wobble.
   
   
5. In our teaching we avoid using the words "squeeze" or "pull" to describe the actuation of the trigger. We prefer to refer to "pressing" the trigger. The word "press" seems to better describe the process of smoothly pressing the trigger straight back, with only the trigger finger moving, to a surprise break.
   
   
6. You'll want to be able to perform the fundamentals reflexively, on demand without conscious thought. You do that by practicing them slowly to develop smoothness. Then smooth becomes fast.
   
   
   • Again, remember that practice doesn't make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.
     
     
   • Practice also makes permanent. If you keep practicing doing something poorly, you will become an expert at doing it poorly.
   
   
7. Many people are uncomfortable with the idea of the gun firing "by surprise." They feel that when using the gun for practical applications, e. g., hunting or self defense, they need to be able to make the gun fire right now. But if you try to make the gun fire right now, you will almost certainly jerk the trigger thus jerking the gun off target and missing your shot. That's where the "compressed surprise break" comes in.
   
   
   • As you practice (perfectly) and develop the facility to reflexively (without conscious thought) apply a smooth, continuously increasing pressure to the trigger the time interval between beginning to press and the shot breaking gets progressively shorter until it become indistinguishable from being instantaneous. In other words, that period of uncertainty during which the shot might break, but you don't know exactly when, becomes vanishingly short. And that is the compressed surprise break.
     
     
   • Here's an interesting video in which Jeff Cooper explains the compressed surprise break.*
   
   
8. It may help to understand the way humans learn a physical skill.
   
   
   • In learning a physical skill, we all go through a four step process:
     
     
     • unconscious incompetence, we can't do something and we don't even know how to do it;
       
       
     • conscious incompetence, we can't physically do something even though we know in our mind how to do it;
       
       
     • conscious competence, we know how to do something but can only do it right if we concentrate on doing it properly; and
       
       
     • unconscious competence, at this final stage we know how to do something and can do it reflexively (as second nature) on demand without having to think about it.
     
     
   • To get to the third stage, you need to think through the physical task consciously in order to do it perfectly. You need to start slow; one must walk before he can run. The key here is going slow so that you can perform each repetition properly and smoothly. Don't try to be fast. Try to be smooth. Now here's the kicker: slow is smooth and smooth is fast. You are trying to program your body to perform each of the components of the task properly and efficiently. As the programing takes, you get smoother; and as you get smoother you get more efficient and more sure, and therefore, faster.
     
     
   • I have in fact seen this over and over, both in the classes I've been in and with students that I've helped train. Start slow, consciously doing the physical act smoothly. You start to get smooth, and as you get smooth your pace will start to pick up. And about now, you will have reached the stage of conscious competence. You can do something properly and well as long as you think about it.
     
     
   • To go from conscious competence to the final stage, unconscious competence, is usually thought to take around 5,000 good repetitions. The good news is that dry practice will count. The bad news is that poor repetitions don't count and can set you back. You need to work at this to get good.
     
     
   • If one has reached the stage of unconscious competence as far as trigger control is concerned, he will be able to consistently execute a proper, controlled trigger press quickly and without conscious thought. Of course one needs to practice regularly and properly to maintain proficiency, but it's easier to maintain it once achieved than it was to first achieve it.

________

*ETA: I just discovered to my chagrin that this video is no longer available on YouTube. I'll look for another source. In the meantime, this article by Jeff Campbell and this article by Jim Wilson might help clarify the concept.

Another way to describe the concept is that as one becomes adept at apply a smoothly increasing pressure to the trigger the time interval between the start of the press and the shot becomes vanishingly small to the point where the firing of the gun at the press of the trigger becomes indistinguishable from instantaneous. The press on the trigger remains smooth, but the rate at which the pressure on the trigger increases is extremely fast.

ETA2: If anyone is interested in Jeff Cooper explaining the compressed surprise break, please see this video beginning at 36:04.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Another benefit of focusing on the front sight is that with a good grip and trigger pull, the front sight will go straight up and straight back down. If you see it flying off to the side or doing other things, you know you have a problem with grip or trigger.

You might be indexing perfectly with point shooting; but still missing and not have a clue why.

 

[WVsig]

Frank I think part of what you are posting that is lost in translation is that the press of the trigger in a real gunfight scenario is not that slow surprise "press". It is a controlled jerk. Rob Leatham "jerks" the trigger but in a controlled way.

I think the word "press" is often missunderstood. Also nothing you are describing = aiming at defensive pistol distance which is 10 yards and under.

 

[WVsig]

Another benefit of focusing on the front sight is that with a good grip and trigger pull, the front sight will go straight up and straight back down. If you see it flying off to the side or doing other things, you know you have a problem with grip or trigger.

You might be indexing perfectly with point shooting; but still missing and not have a clue why.

People need to stop using the term "point shooting" vs "Aiming" when it comes to defensive handgun shooting.

 

[peterg7]

I don't agree. Its one of the oldest and biggest lies about shotguns, that they aren't aimed, just pointed, in order to hit the target.



If you don't aim, you won't hit your target.





They absolutely DO aim!!! That's what the bead is for.



The difficulty in discussing the matter, and where people who aren't shooters get mislead, is that the aiming of a shotgun doesn't use the same kind of sights as rifles and pistols. It's still aiming,



Yes, it seems like nothing more than pointing, but think about it, it IS aiming.



Trouble is, many people hear "pointing" and think they can disregard aiming.



Maybe you define it differently, but for me, when you sight down the barrel, whether there is a bead, a front & rear sight, or no sight but the plane of the barrel, its aiming. What varies is the degree of difficulty, speed, and precision but its all aiming.



Pointing is what you do when you can't see the barrel, such as shooting a handgun from the hip.



Of course, there are experts who use the term "pointing" to mean anytime one is not fully and properly utilizing the sights. So it can be rather confusing.



As others have mentioned, the majority of people who have been in gunfights, and got hits, say they "saw" the front sight, and used it to aim with. Not the careful, precise lining up of front sight, rear sight and target, just a "flash picture" of the front sight on their target, and firing.



this is something that can be tested with a simple laser pointer (or a laser boresight, etc.) Fasten a laser pointer so its in line with the barrel. EMPTY GUN!!! EMPTY GUN!!! and, did I mention EMPTY GUN!!!?...



use a sheet of paper on the wall as your target. Present (point) the gun at the target, (laser off) without looking at the sights at all. Look only at the target. point your gun, then "freeze" in place (this is the toughest part, keeping the gun where you pointed it) then turn on the laser and see where the dot is, compared to your target.



Do this a few times. Then do the same thing, but look at the front sight when you aim. When your front sight is on that target, look where the laser dot is, its also on the target.



My 'point" here is that if you can see the muzzle (front sight or bead) you ARE aiming (whether you realize it, or not). If you can't, you are pointing.



Pointing can get hits at very close range. Aiming, even a "flash" aim gets more & better hits than pointing.



I'm sure others will disagree with my use of terms, but that's the way I see it.

While you CAN aim a shotgun the best wing shots don’t, first any clay game shot with a mounted Gun isn’t wing shooting. To shoot instinctive proper gun fit is required and relies on one using his onboard computer(brain) without focus on the bead.

I watched a show from gunsite where they were teaching a pocket pistol class that taught to focus on the back of the hand instead of the sights when pointing an LCP.

 

[Ricklin]

Pointed not aimed

Frank,
I will take the bead off my shotgun. You leave yours on and we will go shoot some trap. If you are using the bead, I will break 20+ birds, you might break about 5 of them if you are using the bead.

If my focus is on the bead, I will miss the bird 9 of 10. It really is one of the first things you will learn to consistently break trap targets. Same deal in skeet, but I don't shoot skeet.
The focus is on the target, not the bead on the barrel. The bead is in your peripheral vision, it's not your focus when shooting trap. If it is...you are gonna miss.
I greatly respect your posts and knowledge, you are wrong on this one.

 

[44 AMP]

While you CAN aim a shotgun the best wing shots don’t,

we can go round and round on the language used, and, probably will.

Those "best wing shots" may not describe it as "aiming" but they are, and it is.

No, its not aiming the same way one aims using a front and rear sight, nor is it aiming the way one aims through a scope, but looking along the barrel, and aligning it to hit the target (or shoot where the target will be when the shot gets there) is aiming.

The fit of the shooter and the shotgun is important, because it is that fit that determines if one's aim will be on target. With a rifle (or pistol) stock fit isn't nearly as critical, because one aligns the sights to aim. With a shotgun one aligns the plane of the barrel and the shooter's eye. Its still aiming, just done differently.

People say they don't aim a shotgun, they point it, but they are aiming with the gun, just not aiming using sights the way they do with a rifle.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Frank,
I will take the bead off my shotgun. You leave yours on and we will go shoot some trap. If you are using the bead, I will break 20+ birds, you might break about 5 of them if you are using the bead.....

What make you think that I don't know how to shoot a shotgun at a flying target. I shot ATA and PITA competition for a bunch of years -- including a number of trips to the CGSTSA State Shoot. I was never great -- started late in life, and a number of 95s at the State Shoot in handicap weren't able to get me a punch. But I do have my share of buckles won at local registered shoots.

And I generally have had a few pheasants in the freezer.

Yes, I know that in wingshooting one focuses on the target. Wingshooting is not handgun shooting. And while I'm also not a GM at USPSA competition, I do have a few buckles won at that at our local club.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Frank I think part of what you are posting that is lost in translation is that the press of the trigger in a real gunfight scenario is not that slow surprise "press". It is a controlled jerk. Rob Leatham "jerks" the trigger but in a controlled way......

No it's not. One way I know is the I've trained enough beginners to know that they can and do understand the surprise break and can put it into practice.

As far as slow, follow the link in my post 25 to the video of Jeff Cooper explaining the compressed surprise break.* What gets lost in translation are things like "slapping the trigger" or "controlled jerk."
________

*ETA: I just discovered to my chagrin that this video is no longer available on YouTube. I'll look for another source. In the meantime, this article by Jeff Campbell and this article by Jim Wilson might help clarify the concept.

Another way to describe the concept is that as one becomes adept at apply a smoothly increasing pressure to the trigger the time interval between the start of the press and the shot becomes vanishingly small to the point where the firing of the gun at the press of the trigger becomes indistinguishable from instantaneous. The press on the trigger remains smooth, but the rate at which the pressure on the trigger increases is extremely fast.

ETA2: If anyone is interested in Jeff Cooper explaining the compressed surprise break, please see this video beginning at 36:04.

 

[WVsig]

No it's not. One way I know is the I've trained enough beginners to know that they can and do understand the surprise break and can put it into practice.

As far as slow, follow the link in my post 25 to the video of Jeff Cooper explaining the compressed surprise break. What gets lost in translation are things like "slapping the trigger" or "controlled jerk."

No you are living in the past. I respect Cooper and what he contributed but modern combat shooting has evolved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhSQd73TnN8&list=PLTA5eZBBe1pXnAMVl53fAYwHcyU8ODXOU&index=19

PS your link in post #25 is dead so your way of thinking is not the only thing that needs updating. LMAO

 

[WVsig]

Wingshooting is not handgun shooting. And while I'm also not a GM at USPSA competition, I do have a few buckles won at that at our local club.

And a lot of modern combat pistol shooting trainer will tell you that a lot of the stuff you learn to win matches will get you killed in the real world.

Matches do not = defensive combat shooting. That is a myth that needs to die. There is some over lap and both sides can learn from each other but a lot of the stuff that people use to game the "game" do not prepare you or translate to life and death shooting.

 

[Frank Ettin]

No you are living in the past. I respect Cooper and what he contributed but modern combat shooting has evolved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhSQd73TnN8&list=PLTA5eZBBe1pXnAMVl53fAYwHcyU8ODXOU&index=19...

No I'm not living in the past. Pincus and Leatham are trying to describe the same sort of thing that Jeff Cooper described using the notion of a compressed surprise break.

The point of the exercise is to break the shot with minimal disturbance of the index of the gun on the target. We both know that Ron and Rob can do that, and they learned to do it a long time ago. And now they're trying to explain it to others in ways that help other learn to do it themselves.

I can do it too. I learned to do it based on the way Jeff Cooper described it and the ways those ideas were reinforced by instructors in the various classes I've taken.

And a lot of modern combat pistol shooting trainer will tell you that a lot of the stuff you learn to win matches will get you killed in the real world.

Matches do not = defensive combat shooting....

What does that have to do with anything? Don't you actually read anything before you try to respond to it? Where do I suggest, in any way, shape, or form, that shooting competition is anything like defensive shooting or training.

First, you quote me out of context. You're quoting something I wrote in post 30 in response to Ricklin's suggestion that I don't know how to shoot a shotgun at a flying target. What I wrote was, in the context of the post taken as a whole, merely clarifying that I have some reason to actually understand the difference between shooting a handgun and wingshooting.

I suggested to the OP that he might want to look into USPSA or IDPA competition so that he might be able to get some practice doing things he can't do at his local range -- shooting fast and accurately, moving with a loaded gun, multiple targets, etc. And I stand by that suggestion since those are basic skills.

I also suggested that he consider some professional training. I've had a decent share myself, including multiple classes at Gunsite, and classes with Louis Awerbuck, Massad Ayoob, and others. Those were not gaming oriented classes.

I'd be interested in knowing something of your training background.

 

[WVsig]

No I'm not living in the past. Pincus and Leatham are trying to describe the same sort of thing that Jeff Cooper described using the notion of a compressed surprise break.

The point of the exercise is to break the shot with minimal disturbance of the index of the gun on the target. We both know that Ron and Rob can do that, and they learned to do it a long time ago. And now they're trying to explain it to others in ways that help other learn to do it themselves.

I can do it too. I learned to do it based on the way Jeff Cooper described it and the ways those ideas were reinforced by instructors in the various classes I've taken.

What does that have to do with anything? Don't you actually read anything before you try to respond to it? Where do I suggest, in any way, shape, or form, that shooting competition is anything like defensive shooting or training.

First, you quote me out of context. You're quoting something I wrote in post 30 in response to Ricklin's suggestion that I don't know how to shoot a shotgun at a flying target. What I wrote was, in the context of the post taken as a whole, merely clarifying that I have some reason to actually understand the difference between shooting a handgun and wingshooting.

I suggested to the OP that he might want to look into USPSA or IDPA competition so that he might be able to get some practice doing things he can't do at his local range -- shooting fast and accurately, moving with a loaded gun, multiple targets, etc. And I stand by that suggestion since those are basic skills.

I also suggested that he consider some professional training. I've had a decent share myself, including multiple classes at Gunsite, and classes with Louis Awerbuck, Massad Ayoob, and others. Those were not gaming oriented classes.

I'd be interested in knowing something of your training background.

You are King Kong here and wear the Staff name tag so I know I will not win this discussion with you but honestly you are just reposting stuff you have posted in the past based on training you took in the past. The dead link you referenced TWICE demonstrates this. Time to update that copy and paste.

As to who I have trained with I have trained with OpSpec training with Bruce Gray, Ken Hackathorn, Larry Vickers, Pat Goodale and others. I do not claim to be the expert as you do here on a regular basis. For the most part I stay out of this area because it is a circle jerk run by a few who shout down everyone else.

My point is that what Copper taught is not wrong my point is the verbiage and the method has been so bastardized by forums, blogs and Youtube that the real message has been lost. You cannot even offer up live link. LMAO You can go to any range in the USA on any given day and hear someone parroting what you are saying and then watch them shoot target at 10 yards and jerk the gun off target and miss the mark. So you need to change the verbiage. You need to redefine it in new terms so people understand. That is exactly what people like Pincus, Rob L and Vickers are doing. They are changing the verbiage so people listen and understand. 99.99% of people in the shooting community cannot afford to go to Gunsite. The majority of those who can afford it don't do it. They buy more guns. Most people who own guns have received ZERO formal training. They learn by reading posts like yours and watching videos, when the links work, on Youtube. So talking about Gunsite this and Copper that does not really translate to better shooting because the majority have no idea what you are talking about.

As for the out of context quote you are the one trying to use your USPSA accomplishments to established a position of authority in a thread about defensive shooting so I considered it fair game. If you want to consider is a false appeal to authority I will grant you that.

My point is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Some of the old verbiage is tired. It has lost a lot of its meaning and impact. Things need to be updated. Even guys like Hackathorn who was with Copper in the beginning recognize that. You clearly are sticking to the old school.

Good luck with that everytime I go to the range and see the pistols targets that looks like they were shot by a blind man with a shotgun I will think of you anf assume 99% of them were using their sights in perfect alignment, aiming and jerking the hell out of that trigger. LOL

 

[OldMarksman]

Frank I think part of what you are posting that is lost in translation is that the press of the trigger in a real gunfight scenario is not that slow surprise "press".

Where did "slow" come from?

...you are just reposting stuff you have posted in the past...

When something is still pertinent, we do that.

...based on training you took in the past.

Franks' training-- both as a student and as an instructor.--has been kept rather current.

The dead link you referenced TWICE demonstrates this. Time to update that copy and paste.

Frank has provided other links.

For the most part I stay out of this area because it is a circle jerk run by a few who shout down everyone else.

That's inappropriate and uncalled for.

My point is that what Copper taught is not wrong...

Good.

Most people who own guns have received ZERO formal training.

True. It is a good way to invest time and money as it becomes available.

They learn by reading posts like yours and watching videos, when the links work, on Youtube.

How on earth can reading and watching videos effectively teach trigger control?

As for the out of context quote you are the one trying to use your USPSA accomplishments to established a position of authority in a thread about defensive shooting so I considered it fair game.

Bad call. That was not Franks's purpose.

Good luck with that everytime I go to the range and see the pistols targets that looks like they were shot by a blind man with a shotgun I will think of you anf assume 99% of them were using their sights in perfect alignment, aiming and jerking the hell out of that trigger.

Whatever that was intended to mean has been lost in the diatribe.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...My point is that there is more than one way to skin a cat.....

That is true. It's good to have multiple ways to approach a topic. Sometimes when someone can't learn from one approach another approach will be effective.

...So you need to change the verbiage. You need to redefine it in new terms so people understand....

...Some of the old verbiage is tired. It has lost a lot of its meaning and impact...

And those statements are not categorically true.

First, you assume that the way I describe trigger control isn't understood. I know that's not true because I, and others, have been effectively teaching trigger control that way for some time, to many students.

For about the last nine years I've been with a group of instructors putting on a monthly Basic Handgun class (originally it was an NRA Basic Handgun class -- our class hasn't changed but the NRA class has). We're older guys, most of us retired or close to it. We've all done a fair bit of shooting and training -- multiple classes at Gunsite, classes with a number of instructors like Massad Ayoob or Louis Awerbuck, USPSA or IDPA competition, NRA instructor certifications, and three are POST certified. Our training group is organized as a 501(c)(3) corporation. We're all volunteers, and none of use receive any compensation (except the company buys us dinner after the class where we do a debriefing).

Probably 80% to 90% of our students had never touched a real gun before. Our class enrollment runs roughly 30% female. We have students of all ages from early 20s to us more seasoned types. We've had entire families attend together.

Most of our student show varying levels of anxiety at handling real guns. We try to address this by bringing them through the course material in a step-by-step, measured and supportive way. We limit class size to 10 students, and will have at least five or six instructors at each class. The class runs about ten hours, but we try to provide adequate breaks. Periodically we discuss breaking the class up into two days; but since we often have students travel from some distance doing so might be a greater hardship.

In preparation for live fire we put on a lecture and demonstration about how to actually shoot (grip, stance, sight alignment, trigger press, surprise break, focus on the front sight, and eye dominance). I usually do this one, and I like to use an airsoft gun fitted with a Crimson Trace laser grip to illustrate a controlled trigger press compared with jerking the trigger. We then work one-on-one with students on grip and stance using "blue" inert training guns.

Before going to live fire with .22s, the students shoot airsoft (the quality type) in the classroom so they can get a feel for sight alignment and trigger control (and reset) without the noise and intimidation factor (for beginners) of firing real ammunition.

After the students fire their 25 rounds of .22 (working one-on-one with an instructor), we put out a variety of guns from 9mm to .44 Magnum so the students can get the experience of firing the larger calibers. Shooting the centerfire guns is at each student's option. Most fire them all, but some choose not to.

During the live fire exercises it's not uncommon for a student to shoot 2 to 3 inch groups at seven yards with even the heavy calibers. A few months ago, a petite young woman who had never fired any type of gun before out shot everyone, including her husband, with the .44 Magnum -- putting three rounds into about an inch at 7 yards.

Of course we're not teaching a defensive handgun class. We're giving complete beginners a decent foundation upon which to build further skills.

...Most people who own guns have received ZERO formal training. They learn by reading posts like yours and watching videos, when the links work, on Youtube. ...

And that's a shame.

You have some very good training. I would have thought that you'd be promoting good, professional training. Those who really want to learn do seek out good, professional training.

 

[Lohman446]

Its been many years since I have shot trap or skeet but as it was explained to me back then one of the reasons to "point" and aim down the barrel rather than aiming with the bead was to allow continued movement of the "swing" of the shotgun to spread the shot some (think of more of a line of shot rather than just a circle of shot) to gain more hits. Maybe this was wrong when it was explained to me, maybe I am not recalling it correctly, or maybe times have changed.

But if they haven't not "aiming" a shotgun in the traditional sense is different in premise than not aiming a pistol due to the use of.. well shot.

I am in agreement with others though. "Aiming" is not some dichotomous thing where you are either doing it or not. There is a reason you are not shooting from the hip in either scenario (generally) and it has to do, at least for part of the reason, with aiming.