OK. First thanks to all to responding to my other posts. Your info and insight has been greatly appreciated. Under my stopping power thread, respondents indicated only certain types of hits will bring about one shot stop results (to the brain or spinal cord it seems). So in a SHTF situation, how many shots will it take to drop an attacker of average size with a .357, .40, .45, or 9mm? I know its a lot of info to ask for, but I am concerned about my carry choices.
Shots needed to neutralize
- Thread starter LICCW
- Start date
MostToysWins
New member
This is one of the most hotly argued topics on TFL that will NEVER end because there is really no answer.
IMHO, 1 shot with any handgun chambered in .22 up to .50 will stop someone in 1 shot if you hit the BG in the right place.
I can put a .22 short with my Beretta Minx in some guys eye and if it hits the right part of the CNS he will turn off like a switch. In contrast there have been many stories written about guys hit 8 times with a .45 and kept on comin'.
I would not get caught up in what caliber this, what caliber that...carry the gun that you feel most comfortable with and PRACTICE with it a lot.
Accuracy is the key with whatever caliber you choose to carry.
I personally carry a Para Ordinance P10 .40S&W that can carry 11 rounds of .40 in a small concealable package.
Do I feel undergunned with my 9mm's...absolutely not, and I used to carry a Kel-Tec .32. The gun I shoot most accurately is my Sig P226 9mm, it is just a tad too big for a carry piece.
Shoot several different types of calibers, choose a gun that fits you well and that you shoot accurately. Caliber should be secondary to fit, feel and accuracy IMHO.
And please for the love of God lets not turn this into ANOTHER caliber war.
IMHO, 1 shot with any handgun chambered in .22 up to .50 will stop someone in 1 shot if you hit the BG in the right place.
I can put a .22 short with my Beretta Minx in some guys eye and if it hits the right part of the CNS he will turn off like a switch. In contrast there have been many stories written about guys hit 8 times with a .45 and kept on comin'.
I would not get caught up in what caliber this, what caliber that...carry the gun that you feel most comfortable with and PRACTICE with it a lot.
Accuracy is the key with whatever caliber you choose to carry.
I personally carry a Para Ordinance P10 .40S&W that can carry 11 rounds of .40 in a small concealable package.
Do I feel undergunned with my 9mm's...absolutely not, and I used to carry a Kel-Tec .32. The gun I shoot most accurately is my Sig P226 9mm, it is just a tad too big for a carry piece.
Shoot several different types of calibers, choose a gun that fits you well and that you shoot accurately. Caliber should be secondary to fit, feel and accuracy IMHO.
And please for the love of God lets not turn this into ANOTHER caliber war.
MostToysWins is correct
If you want to get a good sense of what bullets in general do to living things in general, spend time reading the hunting forum, especially regarding deer and larger animals. You will learn that even with "enough gun" and "enough bullet" there are enough other factors in any given shot on any given day that there is just NO ANSWER to your question. This is because rifles are, by definition, more powerful and more accurate than most any handgun, and if THEY don't have an answer that will drop a deer everytime, then you can be SURE that there is no handgun or no handgun bullet that will somehow provide that.
This is just the way it is.
What YOU need is a gun that you are comfortable shooting, that you can control, that you can conceal, and that you can afford. That includes the ammunition, not just the gun. If you get a 9 mm, you will pay less for a box of 50 bullets than you will if you get a .40 or a .45. That means you can afford more practice, which affects your control and comfort. If you get a .22 you can REALLY afford bullets, but you won't get quite as much oomph per shot if you ever need it.
You have to get a chance to shoot different calibers and pick one you like and one that works out those first three issues above.
Good luck. You'll spend a lot more time shooting for fun and practice than you ever will defending yourself, so it will be good to pick something you'll enjoy for that too!
Springmom
If you want to get a good sense of what bullets in general do to living things in general, spend time reading the hunting forum, especially regarding deer and larger animals. You will learn that even with "enough gun" and "enough bullet" there are enough other factors in any given shot on any given day that there is just NO ANSWER to your question. This is because rifles are, by definition, more powerful and more accurate than most any handgun, and if THEY don't have an answer that will drop a deer everytime, then you can be SURE that there is no handgun or no handgun bullet that will somehow provide that.
This is just the way it is.
What YOU need is a gun that you are comfortable shooting, that you can control, that you can conceal, and that you can afford. That includes the ammunition, not just the gun. If you get a 9 mm, you will pay less for a box of 50 bullets than you will if you get a .40 or a .45. That means you can afford more practice, which affects your control and comfort. If you get a .22 you can REALLY afford bullets, but you won't get quite as much oomph per shot if you ever need it.
You have to get a chance to shoot different calibers and pick one you like and one that works out those first three issues above.
Good luck. You'll spend a lot more time shooting for fun and practice than you ever will defending yourself, so it will be good to pick something you'll enjoy for that too!
Springmom
MTW and Springmom gave you some real good information.
Let me add just a little bit, . . .
If you get faced with a shooting situation (a life is at stake, or grievious bodily harm is threatened), . . . you simply do one of two things: 1) give up your life or submit to the grievious bodily harm, . . . 2) shoot until there is no more threat.
Yes, . . . it really is just that simple. No, . . . shooting a person once, or twice, or three times, or even a full magazine is not enough of a guarantee that they are going to break off the attack. Once the shooting starts, you must have the mind set that says "shoot till he stops" and that is the only time you stop shooting.
May God bless,
Dwight
Let me add just a little bit, . . .
If you get faced with a shooting situation (a life is at stake, or grievious bodily harm is threatened), . . . you simply do one of two things: 1) give up your life or submit to the grievious bodily harm, . . . 2) shoot until there is no more threat.
Yes, . . . it really is just that simple. No, . . . shooting a person once, or twice, or three times, or even a full magazine is not enough of a guarantee that they are going to break off the attack. Once the shooting starts, you must have the mind set that says "shoot till he stops" and that is the only time you stop shooting.
May God bless,
Dwight
One study, some years back, consisted mainly of surveilance videos. The crux: BG's never went down immediately, GG's always went down immediately, regardless of caliber or placement. The conclusion: it's all about mindset! BG's goin expecting SHTF: GG's are caught unawares.
One trainer, FR & I; ie: Firearms Research & Instruction, sells a t-shirt that has emblazoned across the back: "I ain't gonna #@%?!?!@# die!" or words to that effect. That's the attitude. As someone's sig says here or THR: "I might die, but it ain't gonna be for lack of shooting back"; or "If I'm killed with my own gun, you'll have to beat me to death because it'll be empty"; "You might find me dead in a roadside ditch, but it'll be in a helleva pile of brass"
Stay safe.
Bob
One trainer, FR & I; ie: Firearms Research & Instruction, sells a t-shirt that has emblazoned across the back: "I ain't gonna #@%?!?!@# die!" or words to that effect. That's the attitude. As someone's sig says here or THR: "I might die, but it ain't gonna be for lack of shooting back"; or "If I'm killed with my own gun, you'll have to beat me to death because it'll be empty"; "You might find me dead in a roadside ditch, but it'll be in a helleva pile of brass"
Stay safe.
Bob
Could be 1 shot, Could be 12. The idea is to neutralize the threat. Once the threat is no longer present you can quit shooting. Other than that there is no hard an fast rule.
I have read reports of drugged up crazies being shot dozens of times by multiple weapons and still fighting on. I have also read that a shot to vital organs or major arteries can take 30sec-1min or more to cause enough blood loss for the BG to colapse.
If you want to live, you don't quit till you're the last one standing. It's all about mindset. It's not enough just to want it to happen; you have to will it to happen.
I have read reports of drugged up crazies being shot dozens of times by multiple weapons and still fighting on. I have also read that a shot to vital organs or major arteries can take 30sec-1min or more to cause enough blood loss for the BG to colapse.
If you want to live, you don't quit till you're the last one standing. It's all about mindset. It's not enough just to want it to happen; you have to will it to happen.
This is what everyone is trying to say...
http://www.rcfop.com/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=60
Click "reality & in-car video" & "Deadly traffic stop - shooting of Mark Coates"
The video shows a state trooper being shot once on the left arm with (I think) a .380. The trooper returns fire, with .357Mag +P, hitting COM with 5 of 6 shots. The trooper died. BG lived.
http://www.rcfop.com/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=60
Click "reality & in-car video" & "Deadly traffic stop - shooting of Mark Coates"
The video shows a state trooper being shot once on the left arm with (I think) a .380. The trooper returns fire, with .357Mag +P, hitting COM with 5 of 6 shots. The trooper died. BG lived.
roberts_usmc
New member
Practice failure to stop drills with every weapon you could consider using for self defense.
It goes like this:
Say the threat is 15 feet away and closing on you.
You pull the weapon up, get a flash sight picture (just aim @ threat quickly, and flash your eyes @ the front sight post), and pull a double tap into the center of the chest.
If this fails to defest the threat, quickly raise the weapons to the head and pull off an aimed shot to the head. Aim for the top of the bridge of the nose. Not that if the SHTF and the BG is closing you will likely make a perfect shot to the top of the bridge of the nose, but practicing for this will help you should you encouter the scenario.
The idea behind a failure to stop drill is that the first two shots to center mass inflict trauma upon the target (likely to the lungs, heart, or CNS if placed correctly) and of course it is hard to fight if some one places a bullet anywhere above your nose and between your ears.
It goes like this:
Say the threat is 15 feet away and closing on you.
You pull the weapon up, get a flash sight picture (just aim @ threat quickly, and flash your eyes @ the front sight post), and pull a double tap into the center of the chest.
If this fails to defest the threat, quickly raise the weapons to the head and pull off an aimed shot to the head. Aim for the top of the bridge of the nose. Not that if the SHTF and the BG is closing you will likely make a perfect shot to the top of the bridge of the nose, but practicing for this will help you should you encouter the scenario.
The idea behind a failure to stop drill is that the first two shots to center mass inflict trauma upon the target (likely to the lungs, heart, or CNS if placed correctly) and of course it is hard to fight if some one places a bullet anywhere above your nose and between your ears.
All that sounds well and good except under life threatening circumstances most of us will never make contact with a tennis ball sized target rushing us while our adrenine goes thru the roof. Won't happen unless your last name is Cooper or Leithem.
Your not aiming for the head, you're aiming at the bundle of nerves below the brain and at the top of the spinal cord. While the BG closes on you the target area is bouncing up and down and side to side as said BG moves. In addition, the firing angle changes because as the target moves closer the angle of elevation grows. Now add to that sweaty palms, tunnel vision, loss of hearing accuity and most of all loss of fine motor skills (trigger work and small muscle dexterity[aiming]) and the overall feeling that your life is in grave danger and you will die unless you hit the above mentioned target area. Won't happen.
Headshots are for stationary targets at close to medium range unless the target proves to be wearing body armor. Body armor requires shots to the groin and upper thigh and then head shots. Two shots in the chest is not enough , save the head shot for all else has failed and this is all I got left. This is why we carry spare mags so we don't put ourselves in a position of "it's all I got left".
The drill is nice and I practice it myself but it's just fun at the range. In real life you put everything COM while you're moving off the line of threat and twards cover. This buys you time to get multiple vital area shots and time for said BG to colapse.
roberts_usmc
New member
Wow Ares... I couldn't disagree more.
If we applied that logic to real combat, we wouldn't be inflicting many casualties. The "just hit COM" idea seems great... but you have to assume that the S REALLY HTF and the other guy is armed. You've put two to the chest of a hyped up crackhead looking to score more dope at any cost. The initial trauma causes a studder step. What better time to destroy that CNS? Sure, you have to move and shoot, but getting into that is an entirely seperate tactics discussion. When the Marine Corps taught me CQM techniques @ the School of Infantry, we were taught that within certain range put two in the chest and if they don't drop like a rock put it in their head. Sure, you shouldn't sit there and aim and aim and look for a natural respritory pause to make the head shot. Practice, practice, and practice, and if the situation occured, you would, through muscle memory, put the front sight on his head and give a lethal shot. That is why you practice. So when the situation is at its worst, your second nature takes over and you just do it. By your suggestion, we should just fire off wildly when the BG comes @ us.
If we applied that logic to real combat, we wouldn't be inflicting many casualties. The "just hit COM" idea seems great... but you have to assume that the S REALLY HTF and the other guy is armed. You've put two to the chest of a hyped up crackhead looking to score more dope at any cost. The initial trauma causes a studder step. What better time to destroy that CNS? Sure, you have to move and shoot, but getting into that is an entirely seperate tactics discussion. When the Marine Corps taught me CQM techniques @ the School of Infantry, we were taught that within certain range put two in the chest and if they don't drop like a rock put it in their head. Sure, you shouldn't sit there and aim and aim and look for a natural respritory pause to make the head shot. Practice, practice, and practice, and if the situation occured, you would, through muscle memory, put the front sight on his head and give a lethal shot. That is why you practice. So when the situation is at its worst, your second nature takes over and you just do it. By your suggestion, we should just fire off wildly when the BG comes @ us.
Its mostly the luck of the draw. Look at the trooper Mark Coates thread. A highly trained cop plugs a BG 5 times with a 9mm and the BG lives, while the dirtbag criminal shoots a 6 foot trooper, wearing a vest with a .22lr from a NAA mini revolver and with one lucky (or unlucky) shot, the trooper is dead. Luck, shot placement, amount of rounds fired, and caliber, all have a part in whether someone lives or dies in a gunfight, don't ever rely on just one.
LICCW, you may find the FBI report by Urey W. Patrick, "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" an interesting read. It's on www.firearmstactical.com.
Blackwater OPS
New member
A few people have said keeping shooting the guy ect. suggesting that the entire magazine be fired without pause or hesitation. This is fine if you are CERTAIN the BG does not have a buddy (or 5) that you were not initially aware of. In fact in most cases he probably will. Thus 2 rounds to centermass and if that does not stop him one to the head then you should be scanning for more threats right away. If you do not see any and BG #1 is still up 2 more rounds centermass(unless it has become apparent he might be wearing ballistic armor) then you are scanning for threats again. If #1 is down and you see no further threats you need to be reloading, than scan again. Do not get tunnnel vision and only focus on the initial threat and leave your self vulnerable.
Most of us need more training.
For a BG, use only the best, http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m72.htm
USAPatriot
Inactive
Depends on the person. Mental state, drug use, prior experiences the specific situation, all combine or conspire to either bring him down quickly or bring him down hard. A gang banger with a lot of experience and drugs under his belt will probably go down hard, as would someone pumped up on his own adrenaline during a fight or chase, or a psychopath. A sociopath, someone with little experience or scared will probably go down easy. -Rod-
The British Soldier
New member
Two in the chest followed by two in the head - goodnight Vienna.
OneInTheChamber
New member
Double tapping paper targets in the head is one thing: hitting that mess of a human being who is trying to grab your gun out of your hand while your trying to not shoot innocent bystanders is another.
Emptying the magazine into him makes logical sense; but not legal. You may live, but it might it be in prison. Some liberal attorney will make you out to be a blood-thirsty militia dirt bag. But then again, "better to be judged by twelve than carried by six". Whatever happened to the right to defend your own life?
Chase
Emptying the magazine into him makes logical sense; but not legal. You may live, but it might it be in prison. Some liberal attorney will make you out to be a blood-thirsty militia dirt bag. But then again, "better to be judged by twelve than carried by six". Whatever happened to the right to defend your own life?
Chase