armsmaster270
New member
My wife does fine with a 1911
Shotguns for Home Defense
- Thread starter SP101
- Start date
greensteelforge
New member
You are all right, it is best to start from lethal and skip the whole thing. The idea here is to do the most damage as quickly as possible and avoid legal fees. I will correct the bit on top-loading, though. Regardless of the type of magazine used, the last rounds loaded are the first fired (unless you are loading a .22 type tube magazine that loads from the fore-end), so when top-loading special purpose rounds, they always go in last. The "been there" comments are intended to inform the uninformed that there are consequences after the lead leaves the barrel, and it's not nearly as cool a feeling to hold that gun after you screw something up. I am no pacifist, but lethal force is a last resort, and wherever feasible, should be avoided. If that's silly to you, just go for body-count. There's nothing like that popping into your head while you watch your kid eat cereal. I live with the consequences of these things every day, and am not sorry for having done any of it. A human kill doesn't roll off most people's shoulders that easy. Defend yourself, your home, and your family in whatever way you deem necessary, but I'd like to hear from someone who's been hit with a LTL round out of a twelve and hopped right back up, ready to keep coming. The option is there, it's proven to be effective, and if you chose to use it or not is your decision (I don't recall telling anyone that this is the only way, just an alternative to escalating directly to lethal). But, hey, I'm one of those liberal "pu**y's" everyone's so scared of, and I don't care which side of a conflict you're on, in my book, if you kill someone, you damn well better be able to prove you had no other choice. Plenty of my own friends have expressed a desire for someone to be "stupid enough" to break into their home so they could make 'em sorry, and that's the kind of "hard talk" I'm referring to. I'll leave it at that, and you all to discuss the particulars of how best to shred the organs of your next intruder.
comn-cents
New member
greensteelforge "I'll leave it at that, and you all to discuss the particulars of how best to shred the organs of your next intruder".
Thanks for leaving that up to us, since you are the only one that brings up shredding our intruders organs.
I think every one else here is talking about defending our families!
Thanks for leaving that up to us, since you are the only one that brings up shredding our intruders organs.
I think every one else here is talking about defending our families!
greensteelforge, you may mean well but, IMO, some of your assumptions and statements are un-called for. For one, nobody has posted 'the desire for someone to be "stupid enough" to break into their home to make 'em sorry' attitude. You may need some new friends
. To me, what a person uses for HD purpose`s is as personal as what a person choose`s to CCW. If a BG breaks into my home he has breached a security system and more than likely killed two dogs. With that kind of determination, I am given no choice but to defend my family as best I can. That being said, my handgun is bedside and will be used to get me to hunting shotgun in closet.
. To me, what a person uses for HD purpose`s is as personal as what a person choose`s to CCW. If a BG breaks into my home he has breached a security system and more than likely killed two dogs. With that kind of determination, I am given no choice but to defend my family as best I can. That being said, my handgun is bedside and will be used to get me to hunting shotgun in closet.dabigguns357
New member
It doesn't matter where i am,i carry a handgun,with the exception of my work.That said,i'm sitting here in my robe,t-shirt and sleep pants and i still have a gun on my hip.Yes i live in a safe little town but it's still a habit.Now when i go to sleep tonight i'll put my handgun on the nightstand and my shotgun will still be in the corner.If the bump in the night get to bad,i check my camera's to see where it's coming from.If there is a real threat i know where it is coming from and how to approach it before i ever leave my bed room.When i make my way to my childrens room i'll take my shotgun as my primary weapon and my handgun in a holster that was fitted on a shotgun shell belt which i made.The belt holds 25 rounds of 3 inch #00 buck plus the 12+1 rounds in my handgun.Total round count 5+1 in shotgun +25 on belt,12+1 in my sig = 44 rounds at my disposal.All it takes is clipping the belt around my waist and holstering my sig,and away i go.
This may seem excessive but i will do anything to get to my kids.Once they are safe,the cops can do the rest.
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It's better to have a gun on your hip than one to your head.
This may seem excessive but i will do anything to get to my kids.Once they are safe,the cops can do the rest.
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It's better to have a gun on your hip than one to your head.
CARGUY2244
Moderator
home defense
In order for a weapon to be effectively used for self defense, the most important factor is training, and by that, I don't mean a few trips to the range, but consistent training. Consider how ineffective a driver you'd be if you got a driver's license, and then drove 20 minutes every 6 months. Yet effectively using a weapon is a task that requires much more exacting and accurate results.
Regarding a light, who would fire a weapon at a target that was not illuminated? The light doesn't make you a target - simply utilize the intermitent strobe switch, illuminate the target, recognize the target, and make your decision.
A trained operator can use almost any weapon as a home defense gun. An untrained individual shouldn't have a weapon in the first place, as there are far too many bad results on the menu.
For me, there's a Mossberg 12 500, with a light, loaded with 00 standing against the night table, and a Glock 20, with a light, on the night table, an a DPMS AP4 .308 under the bed. The bulldogs will alert to any intruder, so the exposed weapons are not at risk of being siezed whike I sleep.
In order for a weapon to be effectively used for self defense, the most important factor is training, and by that, I don't mean a few trips to the range, but consistent training. Consider how ineffective a driver you'd be if you got a driver's license, and then drove 20 minutes every 6 months. Yet effectively using a weapon is a task that requires much more exacting and accurate results.
Regarding a light, who would fire a weapon at a target that was not illuminated? The light doesn't make you a target - simply utilize the intermitent strobe switch, illuminate the target, recognize the target, and make your decision.
A trained operator can use almost any weapon as a home defense gun. An untrained individual shouldn't have a weapon in the first place, as there are far too many bad results on the menu.
For me, there's a Mossberg 12 500, with a light, loaded with 00 standing against the night table, and a Glock 20, with a light, on the night table, an a DPMS AP4 .308 under the bed. The bulldogs will alert to any intruder, so the exposed weapons are not at risk of being siezed whike I sleep.
Two additional notes here--one, most "less than lethal" loads are specifically noted for the fact that they should not be used at close range and home defense is almost exclusively close range. In other words, they're still very possibly lethal in home defense use.
Second, as has been said before: legally, firing a gun is considered lethal force or attempted lethal force. It doesn't matter if it's loaded with rubber buckshot or not. There are situations where that might be an appropriate load, but using it in a situation where you are not 100% sure of your target is NOT one of them.
As for the question about a light--I do personally have a flashlight mounted to my shotgun. I don't have to use it, but if I want it I don't have to go groping around looking for a seperate one. I think it's only rational to want to illuminate something BEFORE you try to kill it.
Let me repeat this: if you don't know for absolutely sure what your target is, don't try to kill it. Seems obvious, but you'd be surprised how stupid people can be at times, particularly under stress.
Edward429451
Moderator
I think less than lethal rounds are a joke and dangerous to self and family. I mean geez, if the situation is bad enough to be justified in pointing a SG with LTL rounds in it at a (bogey), then it's a situation that is justified in pointing/shooting with buckshot or slugs. Don't compromise your families safety for marketing hype or cheeseeater fears.
skydiver3346
New member
Greensteelforge:
You state you "have been in plenty of gunfights"? I hope they weren't in your home or property.... If so, there is something wrong here.
The only gunfights I have actually been involved in (back in 68-70) where when I was sporting a camo uniform (paid for by the US ARMY). With that said, I am always ready and willing to defend my life and family's life at a moment's notice. I am not concerned about the welfare or condition of an intruder in my home if I have to "eliminate the threat". Whether it is shooting the bad guy in the face with buckshot, (as you describe in your post) or anywhere else for that matter. I would be trying to defend myself and I sure as hell don't know what intentions the bad guy really has for me.
In other words, I am planning to just do my job to the best of my ability if I ever have to come face to face with and intruder in my home. I sure as hell am not worried about where I shoot someone if an intruder is attacking me or my family. Yes, it would stay with me the rest of my life but not nearly as much so, as the loss of a family member at the hands of the bad guy.
So be it.......
You state you "have been in plenty of gunfights"? I hope they weren't in your home or property.... If so, there is something wrong here.
The only gunfights I have actually been involved in (back in 68-70) where when I was sporting a camo uniform (paid for by the US ARMY). With that said, I am always ready and willing to defend my life and family's life at a moment's notice. I am not concerned about the welfare or condition of an intruder in my home if I have to "eliminate the threat". Whether it is shooting the bad guy in the face with buckshot, (as you describe in your post) or anywhere else for that matter. I would be trying to defend myself and I sure as hell don't know what intentions the bad guy really has for me.
In other words, I am planning to just do my job to the best of my ability if I ever have to come face to face with and intruder in my home. I sure as hell am not worried about where I shoot someone if an intruder is attacking me or my family. Yes, it would stay with me the rest of my life but not nearly as much so, as the loss of a family member at the hands of the bad guy.
So be it.......
Hey Ladies n Gentlemen
Sorry but I couldnt resist commenting. I'm of the school of thought that your best defending yourself, family, home, campsite, or personal space with what ever firearm your familiar with and comfortable with. If you go to the range, shoot whatever for fun and end every session shooting your personal carry gun. That carry gun will most probably be the best choice for home defense. Unles you plan to take a seperate H/D firearm, shotty or what ever to the range on every trip.
Now I have a question.. what exactly is an operator? I remember we used to have telephone operators, a guy who was slick with the girls we'd called him a real operator... I did a couple a years in police work.... no one ever came up to me and asked "Operator, can you give me directions?" or "Operator can you tell me what time it is?"
Sorry but I couldnt resist commenting. I'm of the school of thought that your best defending yourself, family, home, campsite, or personal space with what ever firearm your familiar with and comfortable with. If you go to the range, shoot whatever for fun and end every session shooting your personal carry gun. That carry gun will most probably be the best choice for home defense. Unles you plan to take a seperate H/D firearm, shotty or what ever to the range on every trip.
Now I have a question.. what exactly is an operator? I remember we used to have telephone operators, a guy who was slick with the girls we'd called him a real operator... I did a couple a years in police work.... no one ever came up to me and asked "Operator, can you give me directions?" or "Operator can you tell me what time it is?"
Scattergun Bob
New member
Sorry for the short hand, it saves time. The word "operator" was coined early in the 1970's to express the term "seasoned, trained and well practiced user of firearms and tactics." This word is used through out the police / military community as well as most specialized training programs such as H&K's MP-5 operator school. I first ran into the term at BUDS and it has stuck with me. Perhaps I should not use the term here with our audience. My mistake.
greensteelforge,
You have it wrong AGAIN! The idea is to STOP an adversaries life threatening activity, so that you may survive. I simply do not believe your suggestion of less than lethal and lethal shotgun rounds mixed into one scattergun is viable to accomplish the above.
Good Luck & Be Safe
ConradJoyce
Inactive
Well, I'm new around here but I do have an opinion, for what it's worth. Mostly I guess it's an observation. A couple of 'em, actually.
#1: Blowin' people up ain't a lot of fun and is certainly nuthin' to be desired. #2: Being prepared is just what you have to do.
If you haven't trained for it (and you really can't train for it adequately) or experienced it what you learn in combat is that the first thing to go is your fine motor skills, the skills you need to cycle your weapon, move without stumbling, control your fingers. And the second thing to go is your capability to think rationally. It happens to everybody to a greater or lesser degree. Some people hang and some people don't. Some folks just wet themselves. Actually, a lot of people wet themselves. Which is not say that just because you lose control of your fluids you can't hang, no, that's not true, I remember a kid who would scream and cry for his momma when the **** was comin' down but he could drop mortar rounds faster than the legendary John Henry could slam his hammer into railroad spikes and that was good enough for everybody on our team. He could hang. He wasn't afraid of being a *****.
Too many people can't. They ain't suited for it. They seize-up, which is normal. And while they're waiting for the Test they try to convince themselves that their shiny new gun or their too-cool laser sight or a compensated stock or whatever piece of techno crap hanging off the end of the barrel of that shiny new gun is gonna' make the difference and the truth is none of that **** means very much.
So don't wish for what ain't a happy experience. Don't play at it. Be ready, sure, but don't hope for it.
And maybe you'll never have to find out whether or not you're a *****. Just assume that you are and practice breathing.
And keep your powder dry. I'll shut up now. I'm sure I've irritated everybody enough.
Conrad
#1: Blowin' people up ain't a lot of fun and is certainly nuthin' to be desired. #2: Being prepared is just what you have to do.
If you haven't trained for it (and you really can't train for it adequately) or experienced it what you learn in combat is that the first thing to go is your fine motor skills, the skills you need to cycle your weapon, move without stumbling, control your fingers. And the second thing to go is your capability to think rationally. It happens to everybody to a greater or lesser degree. Some people hang and some people don't. Some folks just wet themselves. Actually, a lot of people wet themselves. Which is not say that just because you lose control of your fluids you can't hang, no, that's not true, I remember a kid who would scream and cry for his momma when the **** was comin' down but he could drop mortar rounds faster than the legendary John Henry could slam his hammer into railroad spikes and that was good enough for everybody on our team. He could hang. He wasn't afraid of being a *****.
Too many people can't. They ain't suited for it. They seize-up, which is normal. And while they're waiting for the Test they try to convince themselves that their shiny new gun or their too-cool laser sight or a compensated stock or whatever piece of techno crap hanging off the end of the barrel of that shiny new gun is gonna' make the difference and the truth is none of that **** means very much.
So don't wish for what ain't a happy experience. Don't play at it. Be ready, sure, but don't hope for it.
And maybe you'll never have to find out whether or not you're a *****. Just assume that you are and practice breathing.
And keep your powder dry. I'll shut up now. I'm sure I've irritated everybody enough.
Conrad
Just me...
The shotgun is easier to handle in sub-optimal conditions. The sound of a working pump action will carry through just about any house. I'd rather it be obvious that I'm armed. If they run away, great. Let them run - my stuff can be replaced. I don't have kids to kidnap and my wife'll be right beside me.
In the event the intruder is not frightened away (due to being unstable, on drugs, suicidal, undead, ninjas, etc) I fully intend to yell my fool head off. Why be quiet? I'm not trying to sneak up I'm trying to scare them the hell away. A nice loud assurance that I've already called the cops (wife's mission) and that getting the hell out would be a good idea.
In the UNLIKELY event actual force is required a shotgun offers a couple of advantages. 1. Big muzzle energy vs just about any handgun - certainly more than any that I can shoot well. 2. It is possible to control over penetration by selecting the correct round for your surroundings. 3. You may end up needing a club (again unlikely - but...)
As others have said hopefully this will never come up - but if it does, the best weapon you will have is your mind.
The shotgun is easier to handle in sub-optimal conditions. The sound of a working pump action will carry through just about any house. I'd rather it be obvious that I'm armed. If they run away, great. Let them run - my stuff can be replaced. I don't have kids to kidnap and my wife'll be right beside me.
In the event the intruder is not frightened away (due to being unstable, on drugs, suicidal, undead, ninjas, etc) I fully intend to yell my fool head off. Why be quiet? I'm not trying to sneak up I'm trying to scare them the hell away. A nice loud assurance that I've already called the cops (wife's mission) and that getting the hell out would be a good idea.
In the UNLIKELY event actual force is required a shotgun offers a couple of advantages. 1. Big muzzle energy vs just about any handgun - certainly more than any that I can shoot well. 2. It is possible to control over penetration by selecting the correct round for your surroundings. 3. You may end up needing a club (again unlikely - but...)
As others have said hopefully this will never come up - but if it does, the best weapon you will have is your mind.
zombieslayer
New member
I have no kids in a huge house. I Keep my mossberg by my bed 8+1. The first 3 that go in the tube are 1oz slugs, the next five are 2 3/4" OO Buck. The one in the chamber is a 3" OOO magnum. If someones in my house to do me wrong, they won't even hear the gun rack a round, at least the first one. I don't wish to shoot anyone in my lifetime, but I'd rather kill than die. The instructor at my defensive shooting class taught us "dead men don't tell no lies". my 2cents
SP101 said:
1. This does not commend a pistol or rifle over a shotgun.
2. That's why I bought a 20 ga.
3. Why would you need to move covertly in a home defense situation?
There is, of course, an immense difference between engaging an armed force as part of a fire team, and trying to defend your loved ones from persons unknown.
armsmaster270
New member
Quote Greensteelforge:
"but I'd like to hear from someone who's been hit with a LTL round out of a twelve and hopped right back up, ready to keep coming"
I haven't but I have personally seen a man hit 3 times and stay up. It is no impossible.
"but I'd like to hear from someone who's been hit with a LTL round out of a twelve and hopped right back up, ready to keep coming"
I haven't but I have personally seen a man hit 3 times and stay up. It is no impossible.
Allot to think about.
I have never had a HD weapon. I have always felt I needed one but wasn't in a position to get one. As most of you may have read I have recently acquired my fathers shotgun to use hunting. I have been posting questions about how to prepare for that gun for an upcoming hunt. I was also considering using this as my HD weapon. I have always known that making the decision to not just OWN a weapon, but having a HD weapon is a great deal of responsibility. There is obviously a lot more to a HD weapon. One thing I think I have learned is that if you are going to have a HD weapon you have committed yourself to the possibility of taking a human life. Just leaning ol' betsy in the corner, or having some monster revolver for a pillow isn't gonna be enough. You really do need to take classes and train. Train so your plan of action is secondary. (I might mean second nature here) That mindset will be far more important than anything. You could be sitting in a room like the rec room on the movie Tremors, but if you don't have the proper mind set when meet your agressor, there is a good chance its your outline being traced on the floor, or a family members.
The only snarky remark I will make is about kids. Who would have a HD plan and not teach it to their kids? If your child knows you are going to come through the house packing if there is a break-in sound. Your child will NEVER try to sneak in. That won't happen to me. I have a daughter so I will be up sittinging the living room cleaning said HD weapon when that boyfriend comes to take her out, and I'll STILL be sitting in that chair cleaning that HD gun when he brings her home ON TIME!
I'm sorry if I have mixed up some terms here. I'm a novice at all this and trying to learn.
I have never had a HD weapon. I have always felt I needed one but wasn't in a position to get one. As most of you may have read I have recently acquired my fathers shotgun to use hunting. I have been posting questions about how to prepare for that gun for an upcoming hunt. I was also considering using this as my HD weapon. I have always known that making the decision to not just OWN a weapon, but having a HD weapon is a great deal of responsibility. There is obviously a lot more to a HD weapon. One thing I think I have learned is that if you are going to have a HD weapon you have committed yourself to the possibility of taking a human life. Just leaning ol' betsy in the corner, or having some monster revolver for a pillow isn't gonna be enough. You really do need to take classes and train. Train so your plan of action is secondary. (I might mean second nature here) That mindset will be far more important than anything. You could be sitting in a room like the rec room on the movie Tremors, but if you don't have the proper mind set when meet your agressor, there is a good chance its your outline being traced on the floor, or a family members.
The only snarky remark I will make is about kids. Who would have a HD plan and not teach it to their kids? If your child knows you are going to come through the house packing if there is a break-in sound. Your child will NEVER try to sneak in. That won't happen to me. I have a daughter so I will be up sittinging the living room cleaning said HD weapon when that boyfriend comes to take her out, and I'll STILL be sitting in that chair cleaning that HD gun when he brings her home ON TIME!
I'm sorry if I have mixed up some terms here. I'm a novice at all this and trying to learn.