shotgun tech in a rut?!?!

People are referencing the S12's rock-and-lock as an inherent problem with shotgun detachable magazines. It doesn't need to be that way. Heck, you can buy S12 magwells, and the Russians even have some models that come with them. Same thing goes for loading on a closed bolt; don't confuse the S12's problems for "shotgun box magazines in general" problems. :)

It's also not as if speedloaders are an instant-fix to tube load times, either; they require some real practice to use well, especially under stress. Tubes can be reloaded quickly, but you're not going to be beating the reload time of a large magazine - again, especially in a super stressful situation. (If it was, you'd see integral-tube-magazine AR-15s, amirite?)

I think there's a better argument to be made that 12ga shotgun magazines tend to be rather impractical once you exceed five rounds; the sheer length of the magazine becomes absurd. Drums are better, but they're a political liability due to their "evil" looks, and they don't lend themselves to typical "tactical" reloads (ie, you'll probably need two hands for the operation).
 
erwos, The real draw back that is a deal breaker is the compressed shells, and the feed problems associated with 100% flat nosed shells and the rim...

Also, I don't know how many "mags" a person can fit in the 2 cargo pockets of his BDU pants but I can carry probably 80-100 shells if not a few more...

Brent
 
When they figured out how to mount two barrels, side by side, with two separate firing mechanisms, and the barrels indexed to the same point of aim at a predetermined yardage, they reached the apex, the epitome of shotgun technology.

Anything since then is just useless piddling.

Did I mention that I'm an old quail hunter?
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This is the most correct statement so far..................:cool:
 
People are referencing the S12's rock-and-lock as an inherent problem with shotgun detachable magazines. It doesn't need to be that way. Heck, you can buy S12 magwells, and the Russians even have some models that come with them. Same thing goes for loading on a closed bolt; don't confuse the S12's problems for "shotgun box magazines in general" problems.
Click to expand...

If people are going to bring up the S12 as an example of how box magazines are better than tubes, then YES, its drawbacks do indeed come into play. When you use a design to point out advantages, the disadvantages of that platform also enter the field of discussion. In practice, they just don't swap well. trying to hurry it is a great way to have the thing fall off because you didn't get the front lip secured properly.

You are correct that it doesn't need to be that way; somebody could indeed make a shotgun with a straight-in method of insertion a la AR-15 (IIRC, CMMG was working on a .410 bore upper for use on AR lowers, but I've not seen if they've come to fruition). But is it worth that much trouble to design and tool up for such a thing when the good old tube with shell lifter works great? We agree that once you get past 6-7 shells, the mag becomes ludicrously long, and guess what... you can get that many into a regular mag tube on a 18.5" shotgun.

And that's assuming you can get it to feed. The 12 gauge shell is remarkably wide for its length, and getting that to feed well is not easy. You have to have a mag that will present the shell rather high for loading into the chamber, but that results in pressing the shell against the bolt when left loaded.

There's finally the use of the shotgun. They generally aren't the weapon of choice for those having to engage in running gunbattles. If you're room clearing they're great to have, but you can usually pause and top off your mag tube while your buddies with the AR-15s and/or MP-5s cover you if you had to bust off 3-4 shots in one given room. Defensive shotguns work best for up close work, and you won't be blowing through several magazines worth in rapid succession in that kind of scenario.
 
The assumption that shotgun design has stagnated is myopic. Look at the turn bolt rifle, single and double action revolver and the auto-loading pistol. They've changed less over the last 100+ years than the shotgun. The reason for shooting multiple pellets rather than a single bullet is primarily to hit moving targets (generally birds and small game), and the shotgun has evolved very well along those lines.

Other uses of the shotgun be they buck slayers or antipersonnel are deviations from the original intent. Using buck shot over bullets is usually because of legal requirements. Given their druthers, wouldn't most deer hunters prefer balls to buck? Anyone who watches John Wayne westerns knows that for a gunfight, you give a shotgun to the the guys who don't know about guns -- proficient shooters get the rifles and handguns.

Yes, shotguns have limited applications for the military, law enforcement, and tactical wannabes. But, these limited applications shouldn't be used as a yardstick to evaluate overall shotgun evolution. I suspect the next generation of multi-caliber smart combat rifles will relegate the combat shotgun to obscurity. There will be no civilian counterparts of the next generation of MIL/LW arms and the tactic-cool fad will fade.

Redlevel42 was pretty close with his, "When they figured out how to mount two barrels, side by side… they reached the apex, the epitome of shotgun technology." But, he neglects to take into account the major upgrade accomplished by turning the venerable side-by-side on edge. The over/under configuration solved the major complaints resulting from the SxS's horizontal eccentricity. If you were to go back a hundred years, the shooter of that day would easily recognize the little changed rifles and revolvers; but, a single-trigger O/U with screw-in chokes would seem like something from Mars.

Auto-loading shotguns have evolved along the same lines as auto pistols and rifles over the last hundred years, or so. Yet, there's no comparison when putting a modern gas operated shotgun with a similar rifle. The shotgun's ability to function with a wide variety of ammo demonstrates a higher degree of sophistication than the rifle.

IMHO, if you need more than two (or possibly three shots) from a shotgun then you either need more practice or you selected the wrong type of gun for the situation.
 
The 12 gauge shotgun shell is problematic when it comes to feeding out of a magazine, as mentioned by others already. A flat nose, a rim, no taper or bottleneck to help guide the shell into the chamber makes for clunky feeding. Plus, the large size of a 12 gauge shell makes a detachable magazine personally unappealing. Who wants a foot long magazine sticking out of their weapon that gives them ten shots?

Now, Kel Tec came up with a novel idea with dual magazine tubes and a neatly laid out bullpub design. I don't know how that will prove out in use, but certainly it blows up the idea that shotgun innovation has stagnated.

But I have a limited imagination, as I can't think of a scenario where an Ithaca Model 37 riot gun (with or without an extended tube) would be found wanting, or the same gun with extended tube, heat shield, and a mounted light wouldn't be close to ideal.
 
no rut

When they figured out how to mount two barrels, side by side, with two separate firing mechanisms, and the barrels indexed to the same point of aim at a predetermined yardage, they reached the apex, the epitome of shotgun technology.

Anything since then is just useless piddling.
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Ah, it warms me heart. It does.
ye olde grouse hunter.

And yes, the O/U...a simple revolutionary change.
Pete
 
The KSG isn't as innovative as it seems.

The basic idea for a bullpup double mag tube pump shotgun goes back at least 20 years to the South African Neostead.
 
As Scotty said, "The more you overtech the plumbing, the easier it is to clog the drain". Why reinvent the wheel? What do you want shotguns to do that they don't ALREADY do? And wouldn't ruffle legislator's and brady's and that ilk's feathers. Just wondering...
 
Bring your checkbook

The basic pump does HD/police/combat duty at such a rediculously low price it just isn`t worth doing the r and d to develop a Rambo shotgun, especially when AKs and ARs fit so well into the picture if you need or think you need massive firepower. Shotguns are IDEAL upclose but useless if the perp has cover

Brings to mind another àlso ran`, the pistol calibre carbine. Cutesy didn`t last in the police world--they lack power and they are a dying breed.
 
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