Shotgun = Sledgehammer

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Playboypenguin

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Every time there is a "Things go bad and you can have just one gun" thread several people always come in and chastise others for picking their favorite handgun. They come in and lecture people how you need to have a shotgun (and to a lesser extent a rifle) in a bad situation if you are going to have just one gun.

Am I the only person that disagrees?

There are a lot of times a shotgun is the best tool for the job. It is great for stationary defense and hunting. It also has tons of power. I just do not think it is, by default, the best choice in a long term "bad times" scenario. It has way too many weaknesses. It is like that old saying that if the only tool you have is a hammer you have to treat every problem like it is a nail. In this case it is more like all you have is a sledgehammer. :)

If I was in a situation where I had to be on guard most of the time I would not want a shotgun or rifle. They are harder to bring to bear. They also lose the element of surprise for you. Not to mention the extremely limited capacity. I would prefer a high caliber, high capacity handgun. That way I could have it close at hand without giving away my defensive abilities to anyone that sees me from a distance. I would also want to be the last one to run out of rounds in a firefight. In an advancing gun fight with heavy cover 4-6 rounds is not going to make me feel to comfortable if the other guy has 20 before he has to reload.

I can hunt with a handgun. I can conceal a handgun. I can fit a lot of rounds in a handgun. I can bring a handgun to bear very quickly. I can fit into smaller spaces with a handgun. I will keep my handgun. :)
 
but unless you are using a heavy mag revolver your ranges are limited to under 50yd, with a heavy mag revolver you are maybe good to 100yd, but thats entirely depending on your skill level.

with a shotgun ammo is easy to find, wide variety, and some modern saboted slugs will reach out to 200yd.

simple solution, carry both. a hand gun is a secondary in my opinion.
 
Your stance has relevance in regards to FerFAL's experiences in Argentina.

Given that many say the US is headed off the same inflationary cliff, it is a solid argument.

The caveat, is that the Argentinian recession-style collapse kept civil order (more or less) through the entire crisis. If we descend to a level of chaos below that, where gunshots are a matter of course rather than something to be merely "tidied up" by law enforcement as they get around to it, that is the time to have the EBR or shotgun.

An autoloading 12ga with an extended tube, set up for fighting, and a 9+1 capacity of buckshot, is a SPOOKY thing. I don't own a single shotgun, but I can see the wicked efficiency of such a tool.

Then again, so is an AR with softpoint or ballistic tip ammunition and 30 round magazines.

Both radically trump a 17rd Glock 9mm handgun. In accuracy, follow up shot accuracy and time, and downrange effect on target.
 
I guess you'd have to define "be on guard most of the time" a little more for me.

In a HD situation, it's pretty hard to beat a shotgun. Except that it's much more difficult for many of us (not all) to have a shotgun accessible and "at the ready" 24/7 than it is a handgun.

Rifles, I think, are not generally a good choice for HD purposes. They have weaknesses that neither a handgun or a shotgun would necessarily have and no particular strengths over the other two. (Others may disagree) Of course, if it's all you've got then it's obviously a good choice.:)

Handguns are the best choice only when mobility and weight concerns are the primary consideration, IMO. If I was truly concerned about capacity restrictions with a shotgun then I could get a speed load system. Capacity is not a concern of mine however.
 
Once again I am seeing limited thinking. :)

Why does everyone think it is going to be a situation of picking off everyone you see from 100+ yards or fighting off crowds from a bunker? It is far more likely you will be needing to gather near other people to obtain supplies or to simply keep moving when fleeing a disaster. In such a situation a handgun is going to be ideal. If I had 4 people approach me waving a white flag then turn on me at close range I would rather have a Glock in my hand inside my coat than a rifle on my shoulder. I think that is a much more likely scenario. We will not be fighting British battlefield scenarios. we will be using up close guerilla combat to stay safe more often than not.
 
Once again I am seeing limited thinking.
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The military, police, etc. (who actually have gunfight experience) use semi auto rifles even in close combat situations.
Handguns are stricly back-up.

Jim
 
The AR or shotgun excels at close quarters engagements.

No one is saying that a handgun isn't a concealable and sturdy firearm.

But if you're engaging multiple opponents, the long gun trumps in every way except surprise.

What does the Army use for CQB in Iraq? What do SWAT teams use here in the US in room clearing? The AR is an amazing close quarters protection tool.

I know the gut reaction to "Army/SWAT" mention is to say "but I'm not one of those guys and don't want to fight that way."

But, you're talking about taking on multiple adversaries.

No one but comic book heroes choose to take on multiple adversaries with a handgun. And they dual-wield. I think the style points make up for the lack of power.:D

Hey, if you feel you're best prepared to defend yourself with concealed handguns in a TIKIWIKI environment, then have at it. Hopefully the surprise element overcomes the reduced effectiveness of even the 10mm in comparison to long gun effectiveness.

AR's and shotguns excel at sub-25 yard conflict, though.

If I had 4 people approach me waving a white flag then turn on me at close range I would rather have a Glock in my hand inside my coat than a rifle on my shoulder.
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Why would the Glock be in your hand, inside your coat, but the rifle slung on your shoulder? Bring the rifle to a ready position. After all, you're doing the same with the Glock.

The brain is always the best tool, and I hope you control engagements with unknowns in such environments by having a long gun shooter or two out of sight, under cover and prepared to decimate your unknowns if they do something to deserve it.

But... you can't do that with Glocks. You need the precision of long guns.

ETA:

(TSHTF is off limits remember.)
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That's true.

http://www.neardeathexperiments.com is a good place for such discussions. If you want to explore it further.
 
The military, police, etc. (who actually have gunfight experience) use semi auto rifles even in close combat situations.
Handguns are stricly back-up.
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You are confusing combat with survival situations. Also, I think you will find that the vast majority of successful SD shootings in both civilian life and LEO work involve handguns. Not rifles.
 
heres my thing. a shotgun is a mental deterrent. It can do massive amounts of damage in little time. There are drawbacks like capacity. Do I really care that my shotgun can only hold 7 rounds? No, not really.
Now lets talk about familiarity. I will honestly say that I am WAY more familiar with my handgun than my 12 gauge. I never have fired my 12 gauge but i might sometime soon at a range just to see whats up.
playboy is correct, a sledgehammer is a sledgehammer. but its a personal decision on what you think is too much and what isn't. if it was me, i might go for the handgun because i am more proficient. but then again, its a call by call basis. A shotgun is a sledgehammer, and rifle is a sword, and the handgun is a dagger. If you need to go through brick you bring the right tools, like a shotgun to deal with armor.
Now, I am not saying armor will or will not take a slug, but the guy behind the armor can still die plenty fast because his ribs/lungs/heart get crushed behind the armor.
 
I will say this, my shotgun has a lot more versatility than any handgun. SD, hunting, it excels at all with the proper ammo. Cant say I feel a handgun as a one weapon only thing, I would take the shotgun I use for deer hunting. I do like my .45s but I can do more with the 12 ga. and it has a sling too. :)
 
Why does everyone think it is going to be a situation of picking off everyone you see from 100+ yards or fighting off crowds from a bunker? It is far more likely you will be needing to gather near other people to obtain supplies or to simply keep moving when fleeing a disaster. In such a situation a handgun is going to be ideal. If I had 4 people approach me waving a white flag then turn on me at close range I would rather have a Glock in my hand inside my coat than a rifle on my shoulder. I think that is a much more likely scenario. We will not be fighting British battlefield scenarios. we will be using up close guerilla combat to stay safe more often than not
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I think your much more likely to avoid the conflict in the first place if its obvious your heavily armed. A distance weapon and a close-in weapon are not going to be the same weapon. Yes I can hunt effectively with a shotgun, but at up close in personal range its going to be bulky. But a hand gun small enough to easily conceal will mean you have to be that much closer to game in order to shoot it. That is no easy feat.

At any rate I'll take a 14" sbs with a youth stock, very short and easy to maneuver. Loaded with 00 buck I won't need 4 shots for 4 people. ;)
 
I think you will find that the vast majority of successful SD shootings in both civilian life and LEO work involve handguns. Not rifles.
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Only because that's what they were armed with at the time. And I think you'll find that given the choice they would much rather have had a rifle/shotgun if they had to go thru it again.

Jim
 
Now lets talk about familiarity. I will honestly say that I am WAY more familiar with my handgun than my 12 gauge. I never have fired my 12 gauge but i might sometime soon at a range just to see whats up.
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I think that is where the answer to your question is PBP. Most people who pick the shotgun are very familiar with it.

Until I was in my early 20s, I hunted everything with a shotgun, dove, squirrel,rabbit, deer, turkey...and am very at ease with one. One the other hand, those who haven't used one extensively may not be as confident in a shotgun as they are with handguns that they shoot on a regular basis.
 
No such critter as a perfect gun.

An unknown author said "when forewarned of combat, only a fool or a Officer will bring a handgun to a gunfight."

Uncle Clint said "use your pistol in defense as you rush toward your long gun."

We must know by now that all guns are compromises. Their is no perfect General Purpose Firearm that will do it all. I think we need to spend our energy and thought on defining the ground we wish to control and the potential threats that my occur, then picking the right combinations of equipment and arms to deal with that small piece of environment.

There have been a number of times that I wished for something larger than the pistol on my hip, However it is on my hip most of the time.:rolleyes:

Good Luck & Be Safe
 
Please, before this thread is locked, can someone tell me what tikiwiki means? I can't find it anywhere with google except for a few firearms forums.
 
I would rather have a Glock in my hand inside my coat than a rifle on my shoulder.
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That is what a 1, 2, or 3 point sling is for, so the AR is not on you back but in front at the ready.
 
If I was in a situation where I had to be on guard most of the time
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I would also want to be the last one to run out of rounds in a firefight. In an advancing gun fight with heavy cover 4-6 rounds is not going to make me feel to comfortable if the other guy has 20 before he has to reload.
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Just WHERE and WHEN do you envision these scenarios happening? (besides a video game)
 
Loaded with 00 buck I won't need 4 shots for 4 people.
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Yes you will, and probably more, especially as the range opens up. Personally, I prefer #1 Buck over 00, simply because it pretty much doubles the load with minimal loss of pellet diameter (.30 vs .33). It increases your hit probability as the distance opens, and the overall load is also heavier, due to more pellets. Still, it would be my last choice if I had one.

Shotguns are great for hunting, but limited for about everything else. They are slow to load/reload, many times slower to operate, are usually cumbersome to deal with in close quarters, even the shorter barreled guns, and predominantly close range weapons.

A high capacity, semi or select fire rifle, or even SMG's, usually offer smaller, lighter, faster to load/reload, just generally easier to use weapons, that need no change in ammo to deal with threats at any range you can see, and will get to things behind cover better too.

Most people unfamiliar with firearms can learn to shoot the rifles and SMG's quicker, easier, and more effectively, than combat loaded, or even heavy hunting loads in a shotgun.

Until I was in my early 20s, I hunted everything with a shotgun, dove, squirrel,rabbit, deer, turkey...and am very at ease with one. One the other hand, those who haven't used one extensively may not be as confident in a shotgun as they are with handguns that they shoot on a regular basis.
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Same here, and I still use them for that purpose, but the one thing left out of the above list, hunting wise, is what this discussion is about, and normal hunting type shotguns are "really" at a disadvantage when it comes to dangerous animals that hunt back, especially when the hunting is indoors.
 
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