Shotgun or AR-15 for Home defense?

M1911,

If Ayoob consulted on it, there must have been some kind of extenuating circumstances, but on it's face value, I can see where shooting through a door might be questionable in the eyes of a prosecutor. As with every situation it's good to get all of the facts. I'd be interested to hear about the case.

I went to an Illinois Criminal Law Update for police officers a while back and this very subject was brought up. Kevin Burke (who is a law professor at Southern Illinois University and former Secret Service Agent and Assistant States Attorney in one of the collar counties around Chicago, I don't remember which just now) stated that if the act of self defense was legal, the tool that was used was immaterial. This same standard probably won't hold true in the inevitable civil suit, but in the eyes of the law, at least in Illinois it doesn't make any difference if you defended yourself with a classic Parker shotgun or a Tec 9. Probably if there hadn't been a question about the shooting to start with, the prosecutor wouldn't have attempted to make an issue out of the weapon used. In my experience prosectuors don't take cases to court they don't think they can win. I guess the solution is not to involve yourself in a defensive shooting that "looks" bad. Then the prosecutor won't look for ways to demonize you to the jury as he sees his case slipping away. Like I said I'd love to know the details of the entire case. And also if the jury aquitted the defendant or let the prosecutor make an issue of the weapon used.

Jeff
 
Jeff:

My memory is somewhat hazy on this, but I'll do my best to answer your questions and comments. Hopefully I won't misrepresent it too badly...

Certainly, shooting through the door was an issue (probably the MAJOR issue). If the defendent had waited until the perp had broken down the door, the result probably would have been entirely different. IIRC, the defendent was found guilty of a lesser charge (one of the forms of manslaughter). But IIRC, the DA did use the military appearance of the gun to try to demonize the defendent.

I agree with you that in a perfectly clear-cut case, your choice of firearm is likely to have zero effect. For example, an armed, escaped rapist breaks into the home of a young mother and tells her he's going to rape her. She kills him with an AR15.

My concern is that in a less clear-cut case, the DA will try to use whatever they can to demonize the defendent. And using a military-style gun may be giving the DA extra ammunition, so to speak. Clearly, I think this is somewhat dependent upon jurisdiction. I suspect it would likely be a non-issue in west Texas. Where I live in suburban Boston, on the other hand, I could easily see our ambitious, media-hungry DA try to exploit such a case to get herself in front of the cameras. After all, she undoubtedly wants to be Attorney General, and what better way than to whip up the media into a frenzy about the suburban neighboorhood man, who wasn't what he looked like, he was actually a militia-wacko-killer living in the midst of the quiet suburbs with an ARSENAL of EVIL ASSAULT RIFLES, one of which he used to MURDER this poor unfortunate soul who happened to break into the wrong house...

Maybe that's just paranoid delusions. But here in MA, I could easily see it happening.

M1911
 
M1911,

Thanks for the info. I can see where a DA where you live could be a problem. But then again, if there is nothing to question about the circumstances this is probably not going to be an issue. I guess the solution is to get as much training as you can afford, including training in the laws as they pertain to self defense where you live. Then hopefully you won't put yourself in that situation. Outside of Ayoob's classes, I'm not aware of much training that's available to non-sworn people on the law and judgement in those self defense situations. Most schools just concentrate on the mechanics of marksmanship and basic tactics.

I'm sure your DA would not hesitate to display your collection of black rifles on TV if you had the misfortune of being arrested for some obscure white collar crime. It all serves to sensationalize the case and make her look good when it comes time for re-election or re-appointment. In fact if I know the type, she'd more likely try to use your hobby against you then, then if you were involved in an unquestionable legal defensive shooting. After all, it'd be hard to make you look like the bad guy if everything was above board and the attacker had a long criminal record. Most people would be turned off by her suggestion that you couldn't defend yourself in your own home. Now when the "victim's" family sues you civilly for wrongful death, you'll probably be portrayed to the jury as a right wing gun nut who left his doors unlocked, displayed large amounts of cash on you coffee table (visible through the picture window) and therefore created an ambush situation so you could act out your violent vigilante fantasies on some poor down trodden less fortunate member of society. Have I mentioned I'm for Tort reform big time LOL :)

Jeff
 
cato said:

Definitly Ar 15- you don't have to worry about body armour (no special ammo needed), no recoil=great shot to shot speed, equal stopping power to 12GA
Click to expand...

equal stopping power to 12ga???????

how do you figure?

A 12 gauge slug @ 1600fps develops 3110 foot pounds at the muzzle!

http://www.federalcartridge.com/andex3.html


somewhat the inverse of the .223

http://www.federalcartridge.com/andex3.html

If a COM hit with a 12 gauge will not stop whatever it is, neither will the 223.


[Edited by Sneevil on 01-25-2001 at 10:42 PM]
 
Carbon 15 in Safe / 870 in Bedroom / P7M10 Backup

That's my plan.

I believe that the shotgun is a great tool for bedroom defense. The handgun is useful should I need to move to another location. I still don't feel comfortable passing through doors with a long gun.

My Carbon 15 is a black, nasty looking gun. I decided that my local, ultra-liberal legal system would not look kindly upon my use of such a weapon. I think that the political reality in my area is extreme. The Carbon 15 comes out of the safe when all hell breaks loose. I don't see that happening, but I would certainly want thirty rounds available. In fact, I would not want to be hit with projectiles from any of these weapons.
 
Stage is set, You and you other half live in an apartment building. Thin walls, studs either 16 or 24 on center. 5/8 inches of dry wall on either side of the wall and hollow core doors, none of which have a lot of stopping power .223 and even a small grain is going to get you in possible trouble. Face it guys and gals, you are in a room 8x8 to maybe 10x10...there are live bodies just a few feet away.
9MM will get someone with an errant round, 45 will do the same and .357 may get someone you don't even know 3 doors down. If you have to use a pistol, try to find what Pin Shooter refer to as Pin grabbers, a hollow point with saw like teeth. They were designed for SD so that the bullet at the would grab and flip, slowing and sometimes stopping the bullet. When you hit a Bowling pin they would flip somewhat sideways from the sping and the suddden stop.Apartment living a nice 410 for her and a Mossberg 500 defender or buy all means 870 if in the budget for you. Nothing more than #4 buck and maybe even lighter and your chances of over penetration will be greatly reduced. Making the risk of hurting and family member or nieghbor lessened greatly. Reguardless of what you use hide behind the bed and wait, cover is always good.
Most of all know your weapon reguardless of what your choice ends up. By VERY familiar with it and operating it is total darkness. cycling it, loading, safety ect and the same for your wife. A weapon can be a greater liablity if you don't know it well. After all what happens if you forgot to chamber a round or left the safety ON? Sure you have the drop on the BG but at a great disavantage when you pull the trigger and nothing happens.

Karsten

PS Those are tried and proven tactic for home SD, learn them, know them and some day they may save your life. Honestly, I pray you never have a reason!!!!

[Edited by Karsten on 01-26-2001 at 05:49 PM]
 
our township police gave up on their
shotguns and now carry ruger .40 cal carbines. such a gun might be more suitable for home defense. worth thinking about anyway.
 
I'm pretty sure in the film Predator, the character Billy ( the N.A.Indian/hispanic tracker ) had a M16 with an underslung shotgun instead of an underslung M203 grenade launcher. Best of both worlds I suppose. :)
 
I would definately go with the Shotgun. The legendary "racking" sound should be enough to deter most criminals inside your home. Also, at close ranges, birdshot would be effective enough and it won't over penetrate.
 
If the BG is close enough to hear the rack, then you are an idiot who has been unloaded for far too long.

You don't fight with sound effects. This is an urban myth that the untrained like to blather on lists.

The second you pick up the gun, you rack it.

Sorry to be harsh.
 
I have to say that I'm with Enoch on this. Depending upon the situation, the first thing the Goblin will hear from me is either 1) a challenge -- "DON'T MOVE, DROP THAT WEAPON", or 2) a gunshot.

M1911
 
On the sound thing

You wake up to a loud crash, you just "know" the door has just been broken down, there is a loud and obvious clatter of footsteps through your apartment (or other abode) as unknown forces charge as fast as they can towards where they think you are, before you can mount an effective defense.

Of course I'm chambering a round, as soon as I grab the darn thing!

Scenario two: You wake up to a small, barely discernable noise, you don't know what it is or where it came from. You don't know if you are in a self-defense situation or not, but because your cautious, you grab your Mossberg 500 Persuader and investigate. As you near the living room, you hear the front door knob being jiggled.

You yell "hey, who's there!?", and the jiggling suddenly becomes pounding and kicking.

You yell "I'm calling the cops", and the pounding and kicking are accompanied by threats and swearing.

You then yell "I've got a gun!" because you actually believe it when the NRA says the mere presence of a firearm, without a shot being fired, is often a deterrent to crime.

There's only one problem with that. 280 million people in this country can actually yell that. Only 70 - 80 million can actually mean it. So rack the slide on your shotgun, and they know which side of the ledger you fall on. But you do so behind cover, when you have the time, yet also know this is absolutely NO susbstitute for the willingness to use it. Because if that does NOT deter them, you have some bona-fide maniacs on your hands.

One of my fundamental assumptions in my advice is that one does not actually want to harm anyone, if they can avoid it. The noise "option" is one that, admittedly, can and should be exploited only under very narrow parameters. But it CAN be an option under the right circumstances. And as I mentioned in my first post, I like having options.
 
OH give me a break. How do you know that some other member of the breakin crew hasn't come through your back door?

Or has soon as you start yelling whatever, the door kicks in and you are standing there with your thumb up your butt.

Of course, the script goes the defenders way. Right.

Listen, dude, if you want sound effects, get an alarm system that you can trigger from inside that sounds big loud sirens outside.

When you need a gun, you need a gun and not some fairy tale of how you scary away the cowardly bad guy.
 
It's the man, not the gun

12 gauge vs AR-15:

I have both, have trained with both, and can easily use both for home defense. I submit that a good man can use either for HD, and the difference will be between his ears, not with what's in his hands.

With any firearm, the only ethical resting place for each shot is the body of your (lethal) aggressor. Put another way, you are responsible for the terminal resting place of every projectile you launch.

Ideally, this means you only shoot when you can hit. Both the shotgun and the AR-15 have their own idiosyncracies to be aware of. Shotgun pellets make patterns, and the max size of it must be intimately known for the home defense load chosen so every pellet can be shot with certainty into the perp. Don't forget that the perp might not be showing a full frontal profile. Shotgun slugs don't have a pattern, obviously, but their point of impact must still be a known quantity.

AR-15s typically have a large offset between the sights and the bore, which leads to a similar difference in point of aim/point of impact at short range.

With either AR-15 or shotgun, I'd have a set of hearing protection right next to the gun. It would not do to have ears ringing and not hear the police yell at you to put your gun down.

The biggest plug for long arms: they are very easy to hit with at typical civilian engagement distances. Good handgun accuracy suffer for most people starting at like 10-15 feet. Even less for some people. However, long arms are a snap to hit accurately with at these ranges (see caveats above, though). Gabe Suarez mentions in his book "The Tactical Rifle" that a SWAT veteran of several shootouts took his longest range shot at 57 feet. That's less than 20 yards and a very simple shot for a rifle.

With either AR-15 or shotgun there is a lot more authority making the perp cease aggressive behavior. The wounds created are not in the same ballpark as a handgun. BUT regardless of which one I used, I'd still cover down and make sure the perp is really down and stopped fighting. There are enough stories of perps taking multiple gunshot wounds (even with 2 x 12 gauge slugs! see Jim Cirillo's book) that caution is wise.

I hope I made sense

Edmund
 
My last feedback

I don't have a backdoor. I live in a third-story apartment, specifically to limit my potential opponents options and to expedite my decision-cycle under the circumstances described. If I did have backdoor, this one variable would drastically alter the options that I exercise.

We have a great dichotomy on our hands here. I believe there are limited parameters under which the "cowardly' bad guys would choose the better part of valor; this would appear a more unlikely scenario under the same circumstances that you envision.

It will be noted, under different threads under different topics, that "bad guys" do not willingly engage in firefights with formidably armed opponents under barricade conditions. The culture of cowardice of those bent on ill-will towards their fellow man is a constant and recurring theme amongst those who believe an armed society actually deters crime.

I find myself believing that, and find difficulty in abandoning it, despite the salient points mentioned in this debate.

If I am in a no $hit situation that finds me in a "get ready to shoot" scenario, you'll have to believe that this guy, who has 10+ loaded guns at his disposal, will act accordingly.

Failing that, if I can take one-second out of my time to avoid lawyers, (wrongful) lawsuits, and any other baggage that comes with taking a human life, I will take that one second.

Like I said before, I like having options. Not killing someone is just one of them.
 
Thanks Eric for the reminders. No... shooting through the door would be a no-no here in this state. And yes the appearance of the evil and military looking black rifle to a jury is not helpful. Home defensive shotgun or pistol would be better swallowed. But if I an fearful for my life and my CAR-15 is there, bad guy go bye bye. And I'm not too sure how the appearance of a Scattergun Tech 870, side saddle, ghost ring sights and tactical sling in black is going to appear to a jury, either. But back to the subject at hand....I'll have to do a little more research on ballistics and ask some folks I know. For me, I am more comfortable with a shotgun and/or 9mm Glock indoors.
 
shotgun or ar15

I agree with the gent's who say if your racking your shotgun with a BG in the house your to late.After you have determined the target is not a friendly the first thing they should hear is Satan saying welcome to hell son.
 
I Hope I'm Reading Some of These Posts Wrong

I've read a lot here about racking the shotgun as an intimidation factor and a couple thoughts about shooting through the door, but only one post mentioned verbally challenging the intruder.

Laws differ from state to state, I don't think anyone lives under a must retreat standard before they can use force to defend themselves in their home. Here in Illinois you basically must be able to establish that you were legitimately in fear that you or another was in fear of losing your life or in danger of great bodily harm if you took no action.

So given that standard and you are awakened by the sound of breaking glass and footsteps in the hall, what action would you take? You have your AR or 12 gage or handgun accessable.

I would gather the family into the master bedroom, bolt the door and call 911. If the intuder approached I would challenge him/her with "Stop! The police have been called and I have a gun! Any further move towards us will be considered an attack and I will take appropriate action!!" this is said loud enough, close enough to the phone that it gets on tape at the 911 center.

Of course all situations are different and the intruder may not give you time to issue such a challenge before you have to act. When the States Attorney reviews the shooting for affirmative defense so I'm not charged, I'd much rather have him hear that on the 911 tape then the sound of the bolt going forward on my AR15, the slide racking on a pump shotgun or an auto pistol chambering a round. Followed by gunshots.

Jeff
 
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