Shotgun or AR-15 for Home defense?

S

sgoeing

New member
Which do you think is better for home defense in an apartment? What ammo for each? I like the AR because of capacity and rapid fire. I like the shotgun because of ease of use for wife, choices of ammo and utter reliability. I have had very very few malfunctions in my Bushmaster but the rem 870 just seems flawless.
Thanks
Michael
 
Michael:

Can your wife handle the recoil from a 12ga pump gun? Will she short-stroke it under stress? In contrast, the AR has essetinally no recoil.

The shotgun has more stopping power at short range. And the shotgun is a lot harder for the District Attorney to paint as an "evil assault weapon."

Either is suitable. Either has advantages and disadvantages. YMMV.

M1911
 
Not to mention the sound from a 223 fired inside a small room! Besides, the muzzle of a 12 gauge is very intimidating!
 
Neither. Both weapons are overly long and too highly penetrative for what you are describing. Maybe an AR-type carbine loaded with highly frangible varmint bullets, if I were going to choose a long gun for apartment defense. I'd go with a handgun loaded with some really good hollow point or pre-fragmented ammo. If you are like many apartment dwellers, you have neighbors on three sides, above you, and below you. You can't afford too much in the way of overpenetration.
 
Hard to beat the wham of a 12 gauge, not to mention the sound of a pump chambering a round in the dark.
 
I keep my Beretta 92 and Glock 30 bedside also. I just find a rifle/shotgun to be somewhat comforting. I actually live in a townhouse. Neighbors on one side, front and other side brick. As for my wife she shoots the 12 gauge alright. I'm triing to get her to take some classes. As for penetration I have always heard that m193 ball penetrates less than buckshot or slugs.
 
Definitly Ar 15- you don't have to worry about body armour (no special ammo needed), no recoil=great shot to shot speed, equal stopping power to 12GA, 30 shot/magazine for those home invasions days, shorter than legal (18"barrel) shotgun, no danger of overpentration (compared to slugs & handgun ammo!), etc.
Moreover innocent bystanders are less at risk and a hostage shot is possible (every tried that with buckshot?).
 
Get a 20 gauge and load it with a Winchester AA Light Trap load of #8 or #9 shot... Will go through one side of a wall, but not the other. Will turn a robber that's in front of it into hamburger at indoor distances.

Any SOLID cartridge, from .22 on up, goes through two pieces of wallboard, and thus isn't all that suitable for apartment defense, unless you really don't like your neighbors.

And yes, I've tested the above loads on some "walls" that we constructed from left over building supplies.
 
Many police departments are replacing the shotguns they carry for patrol duty with 5.56 mm rifles. The advantages are less chance of over penetration in common building materials (actually the rounds penetrate, but break into small fragments that quickly lose velocity), only one projectile at a time to account for (have you patterned a lot of 18-20" shotgun barrels?), better ergonomics and easier for small statured female officers to handle with the minimal training they devote to that type of weapon. Additionally you get reliable penetration against soft body armor.

I predict that within 10 years the shotgun will be relegated to a special purpose role (gas, less lethal munitions) in most agencies.

I think that these reasons make it a better weapon for home defense. As for the district attorney making an issue out of the weapon that was used in a legal defensive shooting, I think that's largely urban legend. Can anyone cite a court case on this for me?

Jeff
 
M1911

I find that hard to believe. .223 penetrating less than 9mm? With all due respect, please quote some references.

People think shotgun, they think 00 buck. #4 buck is .22 in caliber, and touted by some. More projectiles, but not the momentum, and consequent overpenetration. In an urban environment, the nod goes to the shotgun.

Hate to pander to stereotypes, but the shotgun has legendary deterent effects with its distinctive racking sound. BG wouldn't know you were armed with an AR-15, until the moment of truth comes.

The operative constraint here is "apartment". You are resonsible for every projectile you send downrange. Other situations would make the AR the first choice.

That said, Mossberg 500 is loaded by the bed in my apartment, but Galil in .223 is also ready to go. I like options, given the situation.
 
Arizona Fusilier:

Check out the IWBA Wound Ballistics Review. Here's what I found on Tactical Forums, from a poster who appears to work for or with a major police department:

"In testing, the 55 gr M193 FMJ exhibited minimal fragmentation and deformation after first passing through an interior wall. Conversely, the 62 gr M855 FMJ "green tip" had exactly the opposite performance when first hitting an interior wall; it exhibited significant early fragmentation, with only the steel core tip penetrating beyond 19 cm. Since all of the 5.56mm/.223 bullets fired through interior walls had significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles which were fired through interior walls, stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures. 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations and in crowded urban environments than 9mm, .40 S&W, or 12 ga. weapons. Please refer to the IWBA Wound Ballistics Review. 3 (4):16-28, 1998."

Here's the link to that thread:

http://www.tacticalforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000116.html

M1911
 
Every time shotguns come up, that "legendary" racking sound gets mentioned. If you are racking a shotgun in this situation, you were running around with it chamber empty...giving your opponent an extra second in which to put you down if you confront him unprepared. Likewise, if he doesn't see you, racking it is just throwing away your advantage of surprise. What a surprise for you if he fires at the sound. The only sound he should (maybe) hear from your shotgun is its blast when you shoot him. Let's put this "legend" to rest, shall we? Police don't rack shotguns to intimidate people, they do it because most depts. mandate the shotgun be carried in the car chamber empty as a safety measure.
 
Ditto SLK978 on better use of shotgun. 9mm more wall penetration than a .223 ?? You would have to show me that one. M1911, I'll definetly have to read that thread. Thansk for posting your source.
 
Thanks M1911 for your source. You may want to reread. They are discussing 55gr vs. 62gr in .223. Even at that to decrease velocity they are saying URBAN COMMANDOS are using 10 inch barrels on their M-16s. That's just to reduce the speed to 2500 fps (according to the writer). In swat urban situatons many are using 9mm ammo to decrease the risk of going through too many walls. Even in that discussion of 55gr vs 62gr, Randy Cain (need we say more), states his opinion is not based on empirical data, rather experience. Well, good enough for me. But he is talking about 55gr being superior over 62gr in urban combat. Less penetration through walls than 62gr.
Indoors in an apartment situation, stay with shotgun.
 
The higher velocities in the 223 is what causes it to penetrate less. These velocities give it an explosive nature. Once the velocity drops significantly it will over penetrate because it no longer fragments.
 
Ned,
I think you're misreading the data on Firearms Tactical. .223/5.56mm does penetrate less then 9mm or most shotgun ammo. It is the higher velocity that makes it penetrate less. At velocities above 2500 fps (more reliably above 2700 fps) both M193 (55gr) and M855 (62gr) break at the cannulure and fragment. This is also what causes the devestating wounds that these rounds produce. These smaller fragments WILL penetrate as much or more building materials as 9mm or buckshot, but they rapidly lose velocity and are less of a hazard to innocents who may inadvertantly be behind the apartment wall then 9mm or buckshot. So it is somewhat of a misnomer that they penetrate less, they are just less lethal after penetration then either pistol caliber rounds or buckshot.

I'm not aware of any police tactical units that are using 10" barrels to reduce velocity on their M16s. I suppose it's possible someone is, but by and far the most popular 5.56mm weapon for this purpose is the Colt M4 Carbine which has a 14.5" barrel.

Jeff
 
Ned:

I have to disagree with you. He clearly states: " Since all of the 5.56mm/.223 bullets fired through interior walls had significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles which were fired through interior walls, stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures. 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations and in crowded urban environments than 9mm, .40 S&W, or 12 ga. weapons."

M1911
 
Jeff said:

"I think that these reasons make it a better weapon for home defense. As for the district attorney making an issue out of the weapon that was used in a legal defensive shooting, I think that's largely urban legend. Can anyone cite a court case on this for me?"

No I can't. But at LFI-1, Ayoob spoke about a case that he consulted on. IIRC, the perp was banging on the outside of the front door. The defendent shot the perp through the door, using an SKS. According to Ayoob, the military nature of the SKS was used by the DA to try to demonize the defendent. I've got his book, the Ayoob files, so I'll try to remember to check it and see if he covers this incident.

M1911
 
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