Shot Shell Length Question

T

Two Flints

Inactive
Hi,

I have an old reconditioned Spencer Pump Shotgun that requires 2 5/8" shells. I have a supply of 2 5/8" shotgun shells that were made for me specifically for this shotgun. I measured the shells and get a length of 2 5/16". I understand that shells are measured after they have been fired. So are the shells I have (2 5/8") correct for my Spencer Shotgun?

Just want to double check before I go grouse hunting next week.

Thanks,

Two Flints
 
yes, shotshells are measured after they're fired ...so if in fact, that is the spec on your gun ...you should be ok ...at least in theory .../ but its not just a chamber length issue.

and I won't pretend to know much about an old spencer shotgun ....but I'd be surprised if it does not have damascus barrels ..and Damascus barrels were never designed to be shot with modern smokeless powder shells. So depending on what these shells are - no, you can't fire this gun....

You might be able to shoot black powder in the gun ...but at the very least, the gun needs to be checked by a competent gunsmith even before you do that .../ reconditioned does not tell me the gun is safe to be fired...and noone on the internet, is going to tell you its ok to shoot this gun !!! You need to go and see a good and reputable gunsmith that knows these old guns ...not some back yard wannabe .../ and looking at it may not be enough - it may have to be pressure tested .../ so I keep coming back to no, do not fire these shells or any shells in this gun - regardless of shell and chamber length....
 
I'd like to ask a question in this regard --Is the fired length of an old paper shell the same as the fired length of a modern plastic shell ??
If the plastic one is longer you may have a problem.
 
Mete... I think that is handled...
My 2 3/4 slugs are pretty long compared to my shot shells. Since they only add the roll crimp to length after firing...

Brent
 
I just measured a fired Brenneke 20 gauge shell, 2 3/4 inch acording to my ruler. A fired Remington Gun Club "2 3/4 inch" measures in at 2 5/8 inch.
 
Google suggests that all Spencer shotguns have damascus/twist steel barrels.

This is not good.

It's possible that weld joints can be nearly rusted through, and yet not be visible to inspection.

It's not recommended to fire any shotgun with a damascus or twist steel barrel because of this. It could let go at any time and you would never see it coming.

Good luck :(.
 
I have a supply of 2 5/8" shotgun shells that were made for me specifically for this shotgun.​
Do you have confidence in the competency of the shell maker? Does he have a large insurance policy?
 
I don't think google is a bonafide source for information on anything. You are reaching opinions from lay persons posting opinions and what "they feel is right".

A qualified gunsmith can answer more in a few minutes.

Knowing what the shells are loaded with comes first.
 
IIRC, Spencer went belly up around 1875. Bannerman's etc, carried them until the 1890s.

I'd be very loath to shoot a 135 year old, Twist barreled shotgun with ammo of unverified provenance. In fact, if you broke that out next to me at the range, I'd leave the line.

Have a smith you trust with your life(because you are) go over this and check it out muzzle to butt. If he/she does OK it for light use with carefully selected ammo, I'd still tie it to a tree out in the woods and fire it off with a LONG string before hunting with it.

Shotguns and grenades have similar working pressures.

Polywad makes short 2.5", low pressure loads that may be your best choice.

I do know someone who hunts a bit with an old Burgess of similar vintage, so it's not a totally lost cause.

Good luck and HTH....
 
I believe the Spencer pump shotgun was made for 2-1/2" shells - is the gun marked as a 2-5/8" shell? Second - I am sure the Spencer pump (and other spencer marked shotguns) were made for black powder loads. If those 2-5/8" shells were made up special for you - did they use black powder or smokeless? Those are damascus type barrels - actually, they are laminated and really don't exhibit the patterning of the true damascus types. Laminated barrels rust between the layers and will let go.
 
Hello again,

My Spencer Pump Shotgun was designed for 2 5/8" shells; 2 1/2" will also work with it. I have a few shells made for my Spencer - black powder loaded, this is the actual load in paper and plastic with photos of the shells I have used in the past:

Here are the two samples: - one is paper hull, which I prefer and the other is clear plastic. Both were loaded with 3 drams of Shuetzen Black Powder, 1 1/8 ounces of lead shot, #7 1/2 shot in the paper hull shell and #6 shot in the plastic hull shell

shotgun2shell.jpg


shotgun1shell.jpg


I indicated my current Spencer load above, how does it compare to this one I am considering in terms of being lighter or heavier - 70 gr ffg, 10z shot?

Thanks to all who replied to my original post.

Two Flints
 
the size of shot ....in a shotshell is irrelevent....

if the onces of shot are the same ( 1 1/8 oz as you say )
and they are both loaded to 3 dram ....of identical powder ...

They should be identical ...in terms of velocity and recoil ...

...... but maybe you should ask the guy that made them up for you ( when you ask for a certificate of insurance for his Commerical General Liability insurance policy - as an ammo mfg for sale..) ...hopefully before you pull the trigger on this gun....

I'm not convinced you understand how dangerous this old gun might be ....!! ..unless it has been thoroughly checked by a competent gunsmith...:eek:....but its a free country / and its your hands and eyes behind that gun, not mine. Good luck to you ... / none of us, who urged you to use caution - want to see you get hurt ...but we were serious when we said be careful ....
 
A Spencer shotgun in just about any condition is worth over $600, if it is in working condition perhaps more. It has an iron frame and breechblock, so smokeless loads are a no-no. Even if you load to the light side, the pressure curve for black powder is not the same as the pressure curve for smokeless. If you really want to shoot it, you can buy black powder shotshells. Cowboy Action shooters use them all the time, so they are available.

As a historical footnote, Spencer shotguns were the first patented pump action shotgun. They are heavy, as the carrier is a large piece of well-machined cast iron approximately 3" x 3" x 1". They are also called "mousetrap" shotguns and if you are not careful you will find your fingers involved in the action.
 
My 2007 Standard Catalog of Firearms page 1130 says Spencer Arms manufactured the slide action shotgun from 1882 - 1889.
In 1890 Bannerman bought the patents and machinery and moved the operation to Brooklyn New York.
They produced the Spencer Bannerman model from 1890 - 1907.
The Bannerman models are worth 20 percent less than the earlier Spencer models.
 
Dave McC said:
IIRC, Spencer went belly up around 1875. Bannerman's etc, carried them until the 1890s.
Click to expand...

Mike Irwin said:
Question...

If Spencer went belly up in 1875, why did I just find a Spencer Model 1884 pump shotgun during a quick web search?
Click to expand...

He only missed it by 10 years or so. I have trouble remembering what I was doing last week. I give him an A for remembering something that happened in the 19th century so well. :)
 
3 DRAMS

You say these black powder shells were made up with 3 DRAMS of Black powder. I must be missing something, but per a quick google that is quite a lot of powder.

3 Dram Equivalent is a smokeless powder load that is nominally equivalent to 3 Drams of Black Powder, or 1 1/8 oz of shot at 1200 FPS.

That would be 180 grains of BP, which is quite a bit.
Click to expand...

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-234545.html See the post by armedbear

That is the standard 12 gauge target load for a 2-3/4 inch sghot shell available at WalMart. Before you shoot it, can I take out a life insurance policy on you?:D:D:D
 
If Spencer went belly up in 1875, why did I just find a Spencer Model 1884 pump shotgun during a quick web search?
Click to expand...

The Spencer name was carried on thru 1932 on several retailers and made by various gunmakers. Sorta like the Western Auto, JC Higgins, Montgomery Ward, whatever, Marlin models.
 
Please note one (1) ounce equals 437.5 grains, And there are 16 Drams in a ounce (A unit of Avoirdupois weight equal to one sixteenth of an ounce (Webster)).

Therefore 437.5 grains/16 drams = 27.34375 grains.

A three(3) dram load would equal 3 drams x 27.34375 grains= 82.03125 grains.

google is wrong more often than right.

It seems that the "experts" on The high road are not experts after all.

A 180 Grain load of BP is just about right for a .577BP Express rifle shooting a 600grain bullet.
 
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