Shot Placement, in the real world

While they do mark POI, they also do an excellent job of marking the BGT (Bad Guy's Target). That being YOU.
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So does muzzle flash, flashlight, reflection, YOU, etc.

Some quick tips, Roscoe:

No need to pull the batteries. The Lasergrips have a 'master' on-off switch. :)

Practice is necessary to shoot accurately. 90% of practice should be with sights/point shooting, 10% with Lasergrips. They're that easy to use.

Learn proper use.....use them intermittently. Use the laser only when needed. That's the tactic. And that's what the pressure switch is for.

Since your son is a novice, uneducated in the immediate tactical advantages of Lasergrips, he deserves a qualified trainer. Another good option is to just sell them.

Hope that helps.
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I can honestly say that in even the scariest situations I've experienced loss of fine motor skills control and auditory exclusion but I have always reverted to my training and mental mindset and never went into panic.
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The mind and body can be taught to overcome the effects of a fight or flight stress response. You will need to raise your heart rate to aerobic levels then shoot, or do some other thing that requires fine motor skills.
As it turns out, my range is in the country so I go there to jog. So I jog two miles then I sprint the 100yrds up the hill to my vehicle, throw on my gun belt, sprint the 175yrds to the firing line, draw, load and fire as fast as I can at targets I set up before I went running. I run barricades, kneeling, squatting and sprinting, firing about 30rnds. I've gotten pretty good at it.
Why do you think a marine drill sergeant wakes his recruits up the way he does, mental training.
 
I would think aiming with a game controller and aiming with a pistol are two different skill sets. Can't make assumptions about one from the other.

K
 
Shot placement -

I've never been a big fan of dime-sized group on a man-sized target. Just doesn't make sense to try to keyhole a round into a hole that's already been created. Seems to me that you'd want as many individual separate holes as you can get.

As for the "caliber wars" - I just don't think I can argue against the physics of a bigger hole. For me, I want as big a hole as I can make and I want the round to get as close to the protected center of the body as it can get - and that means high weight, low velocity. After all, isn't that where all the important stuff is - buried deep inside the body?
However, I believe it is more about the type of bullet and shot placement than it is about the caliber of the round.

Shot placement - 99% of people out there are not going to place their rounds where they think they will under life-threatening stress. The more you are exposed to that stress then the easier it is to work through and overcome. Most people are not exposed to that level of stress consistently enough to be able to realistically expect to "work through it".
The people who can are the people who will draw a weapon, shoot, and reholster without even thinking about it and only marginally acknowledging the threat itself, because by the time they have identified a target and before the weapon has been fired they are already seeking another target. Unless you are this person I would submit that you should probably leave some room for the possibility of fight/flight or instictive response.
If you think that your groupings are poor at 8-10 inches - place a 10-inch circle COM on a man-sized target. That should work out nicely if it had to.

Also - while lasers help, I've seen trained professionals drop the first couple of shots VERY low when reacting to a real threat. Additionally, after discussion many either don't remember pulling that trigger more than once or don't remember it at all. A laser isn't going to help much when your brain is screaming PULL THE TRIGGER!!!. These are all things that training can overcome - but someone already said it:

I have yet to come across ANY training format that will accurately simulate what's going to happen to you when it really goes down.

Ok - just my .02
 
I would think aiming with a game controller and aiming with a pistol are two different skill sets. Can't make assumptions about one from the other.
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+1

There's just not enough similiarity between using a game controller to move a crosshair around a screen and using a firearm. The latter is a much more natural movement, analogous to pointing your finger.
 
put down the game

Put down the video game and go to the range for some real practice. True story- Hillsborough County deputy shoots bad guy twice in the chest with a .45. Bad guy drops knife, is taken to hospital, and makes full recovery to end up in jail. Tampa firefighter shoots carjacker once in the chest with a .380, bad guy is Dead On Arrival. Shoot what you're comfortable with, shot placement IS important.
 
Shot placement is also sometimes just luck, no matter what you're shooting (think Trooper Mark Coates). And I refuse to believe that the cop who put 2 .45 slugs into a guy's chest intended for his rounds to go somewhere different than the firefighter with the single .380 shot. It just doesn't stand to reason.

To use a sports analogy: Any given Sunday.
 
And I refuse to believe that the cop who put 2 .45 slugs into a guy's chest intended for his rounds to go somewhere different than the firefighter with the single .380 shot. It just doesn't stand to reason.
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I don't refuse to believe it or choose to believe it. I don't know. If I asked both of them what they intended, then I might have a start (at knowing).

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but it seems fairly clear that a .380 in the right place in the chest can kill a guy, and two .45's someplace else in the chest may not kill a guy. I understand that it is in fashion these days to shoot unarmored perps in the chest (some folks call that "center of mass," although it probably isn't). I'm not sure, but I think that most doctors would tell yiou that the odds are a lot better of stopping a guy with a heart shot of some sort or another than some unspecified chest shot. Spine shots are probably even better. The real question is whether you can do it under the conditions which will probably exist. This may have been what you were telling us - that it is a crap shoot, and that neither guy knew where in the chest he was going to hit. If neither knew, then I guess it was just luck. If some people quietly achieve effective defensive marksmanship without broadcasting it, that might be something to strive for.

In the end, I choose the largest-caliber cartridge with sufficient penetration that I can handle and carry. Depending on the circumstances, that might be .36, .43 or .45.

YMMV.

520
 
Don't remember where or when I was told this but I was told to start at the crotch and zip his zipper all the way to the neck. Not sure if this is the best defense shooting method but it has always stuck in my mind.
 
I'm not sure what you're getting at
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Sorry - that wasn't a jab at you at all. And you're spot on with what I was trying to say. To some extent, it IS a crap shoot. Yes, round type and shot placement have much to do with shot effectiveness, but I've seen enough to know that the dumbest luck has just as much effect on the outcome in many cases.

I'm not advocating anything or arguing against anything, just stating that shot placement isn't the ONLY thing to remember. An accidentally well-placed .22 will still kill you just as dead as a surely placed .45 head-shot. Then again, maybe the guy walks away from two .45 slugs in the chest. You just never know.
 
i know this thread may have seemed silly at first, but the point of it was to let people know that "shot placement", is not something you can fully count on. i think it is crazy to assume that when your in a life and death situation, your going to be able to put your shots in certain places on your targets body. i was using this certain video game as an example. true, video game controlers are easier to aim with then a real 2.5lbs gun (or heavier with rifles). but to those that have played them, they can understand, where i am coming from. very few computer game nuts (people that play double digit hours a day), can sucessfully get headshots all the time when playing online, or against the computer. now in the game there is no real threat, if you die you just respawn (or come back to life), so the "fear factor", shouldnt be there. but to automatically assume you can get a "headshot" (bad term, i mean make your bullets go EXACTLY where you want them to), in a REAL life or death situation is crazy. people are not machines they will crap their (fill in the blank), in one way or another. its just human nature.

i guess what made me think of this was that i use to be one of those "shotplacement" guys. but after thinking about it, and realizing that if i cant do it 100% of the time in a video game, on my 24" t.v. (where the controller has no recoil, loud blast, or 8lbs trigger pull), then what makes me think i can do it in real life? so i started to think maybe i need to change what i carry to something larger then 9mm. i know that .40 is not a huge improvement but if the situation arises and all i can get on my target is a gut shot, arm shot, or non-vital area, i want to make sure it hurts alittle more so nothing happens to me or my loved ones.

i guess thats really the point i was trying to make.

thanks for all your replies (and keep them coming)!
 
i know this thread may have seemed silly at first, but the point of it was to let people know that "shot placement", is not something you can fully count on.
i think it is crazy to assume that when your in a life and death situation, your going to be able to put your shots in certain places on your targets body.
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That's why I get such a kick out of the guys who...in a shootout...think they will hit com, hit a threat while on a full run, hit a threat in the dark, run a zipper, shoot upside down, blah, blah, blah.......

Here's a small dose of reality for the over-confident and the uninitiated:

"Tactical Realities:

Shot placement is an important, and often cited, consideration regarding the suitability of weapons and ammunition. However, considerations of caliber are equally important and cannot be ignored. For example, a bullet through the central nervous system with any caliber of ammunition is likely to be immediately incapacitating.
Even a .22 rimfire penetrating the brain will cause immediate incapacitation in most cases. Obviously, this does not mean the law enforcement agency should issue .22 rimfires and train for head shots as the primary target. The realities of shooting incidents prohibit such a solution.
Few, if any, shooting incidents will present the officer with an opportunity to take a careful, precisely aimed shot at the subject’s head.

Rather, shootings are characterized by their sudden, unexpected occurrence; by rapid and unpredictable movement of both officer and adversary; by limited and partial target opportunities; by poor light and unforeseen obstacles; and by the life or death stress of sudden, close, personal violence.

Training is quite properly oriented towards "center of mass" shooting. That is to say, the officer is trained to shoot at the center of whatever is presented for a target. Proper shot placement is a hit in the center of that part of the adversary which is presented, regardless of anatomy or angle."

Reference: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.ht

Read it. Nothing's changed over time......except some folks' unrealistic confidence levels. :)
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Skyguy,

They are extremely accurate! Just place the dot and you'll hit that spot.
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You speak as though lasers are the save all end all. Yes lasers are accurate and will hit that "spot" IF THE DOT IS STILL ON THE "SPOT" AFTER YOU DROP THE HAMMER BY PULLING THE TRIGGER only the single most difficult aspect of shooting accurately. To suggest that by simply putting a laser on your gun will make you hit is wrong. You still must learn trigger control. If you practice at all on your trigger control.....point shooting is easy to learn. It won't give the badguy a place to aim either.
 
i know that .40 is not a huge improvement but if the situation arises and all i can get on my target is a gut shot, arm shot, or non-vital area, i want to make sure it hurts alittle more so nothing happens to me or my loved ones.
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You honestly think the human body and tissue can distinguish between a 9mm and a .40 cal projectile? That's laughable. There is no way in heck that you will convince me that a .40 hit "hurts more", either pain wise or by damaging a significant* amount more tissue, than an identically placed 9mm hit. No way...

*= Significant meaning enough difference to make a better stop.
 
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Rainbow Six,
You may want to read Erik's sticky about silly/inappropriate posts before posting again in TandT. Just an FYI in case you haven't read it yet.

That said: shot placement and caliber selection are always going to be debated because the truth is the differences in wounding ability between the main handgun fighting calibers (9mm to .45 ACP) are minimal. If premium JHP ammo is used, a 9mm (I have stats for Rem GS 124gr +P) will penetrate 13" and expand to .61" The best .45 ammo (this is all according to the FBI ballistics test results) will expand to .70" and penetrate up to 18" So, the difference is .09" more expansion and 5" extra penetration for the .45. That small difference in expansion might allow the bigger bullet to nick an artery and cause massive blood loss that a 9mm might miss. Likewise, the extra penetration might allow the .45 to enter and exit an arm, enter the torso, penetrate a rib and damage a vital organ that will begin to cause massive blood loss. It might. . .

So, I'm a proud .45 owner? Unfortunately no. I can't shoot it accurately at paper targets, let alone moving targets in low light under stressfull situations. So, years ago I bought a Glock .40. Why? Because my naive self thought that if the FBI issues it, it must be the best for me too. Again, wrong answer. With the amount of time I could devote to range time, private marksmanship training, and tactical handgun courses, I couldn't overcome the flinch I had developed because of the recoil. I finally gave in and shot my trainers Glock 17. Oh my gosh; after a little practice I was one holing paper targets at 15 feet, and later hitting moving targets COM consistently. I first thought: I can't carry the wimpy nine minimeter; everyone says it doesn't have enough "stopping power" or "knock down" power.

Well, after some serious research in terminal ballistics I discovered that the relatively small advantage that the .45 has was not worth it if I couldn't hit the target COM. If you can do it, more power for you. I can also hit the target and fire a follow up shot much quicker and accurately than with the larger calibers.

Final note: these are only my experiences and observations. Delta Boys carry highly customized 1911's. Do they know something I don't? No, but they sure shoot and train infinitely more than I do. So, I choose based on my shot placement and speed with 9mm, knowing that if necessary I would be accurately sending a bullet (toward a BG) that has been doing the job worldwide for years.
 
ddelange,
Delta Boys carry highly customized 1911's. Do they know something I don't? No, but they sure shoot and train infinitely more than I do.
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Actually, many people including the Delta Boys have the strength to handle a .45 and they have eliminated the flinch factor which makes a .45 as easy to handle as a 9mm.
If you can do that, shot placement and speedy followups become relatively easy.

Most trainers recommend that one carry the largest caliber handgun that one can handle effectively.

In a shootout........Bigger 'is' better!
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Rainbow Six,
You may want to read Erik's sticky about silly/inappropriate posts before posting again in TandT. Just an FYI in case you haven't read it yet.
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Sticky reviewed. I hadn't seen it before so thanks. Even so, I really don't think my post was out of line. I edited it in the interest of avoiding putting the Staff off unnecessarily, but I really don't think I violated the rules set forth in that thread. I respect the Staff and the rules though, so I'll restrict myself a bit more to avoid crossing the line they have drawn. I'm not one to push the rules when I know what they are. ;)
 
everyone says it doesn't have enough "stopping power" or "knock down" power.
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Both of these concepts have been debunked...there are no such things as "stopping" or "knock-down" power. Hopefully your research uncovered that as well.

There has been significant research in this area, and the old ways of thinking have been challenged - especially in terms of "transfer of energy" and the temporary cavity misconceptions.
 
Halfprice - sounds like an awesome game. Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3, as well as the remake of the original, have similar systems regarding shot placement, though it is perhaps less in-depth.
 
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