Shot Group Mean Radius .....

The practical problem for me is “how does one find the center of a group?”

In one dimension, it’s easy (I mean, if SDev is considered “easy”). In two dimensions I have to think on this.

The “center” of the group could be defined as the point where the sum of the distances from the center of each bullet hole is minimum.

Is it as simple as finding the center left-right and the center up-down and that’s the center? My concern is that this somehow violates Pythagoras.

In a practical sense... isn’t there an app for this?
 
The practical problem for me is “how does one find the center of a group?”
Group center is the intersection of the average vertical position with the average horizontal position of each shot hole center.

Use this method........

Draw a horizontal line through the bottom most shot hole center.

Draw a vertical line through the left most shot hole center.

Measure and record the distance from the bottom horizontal line straight up to each shot hole. Calculate the average, measure that up from the bottom line then draw a horizontal line through that point.

Repeat the above step horizontally from the left vertical line to the right.

Group center is the intersection of the above two lines.

Interesting stuff: http://ballistipedia.com/index.php?title=Describing_Precision#Mean_Radius_.28MR.29
 
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The original question was how is Mean Radius as defined by ordnance report. I gave this info without defending or denying the validity. Perhaps one should return to the time that this was defined. No computers, no calculators, and no Doppler radar, only slide rules and log tables. While it may not be a perfect way to measure accuracy, it is at least a standard. From experience the ordnance department determined that it was a standard that gave a method of comparing accuracy of different lots of ammunition or rifles that was as satisfactory as any other at the time it was developed. Another method was Figure of Merit. Then there was the "string measurement".
 
Perhaps one should return to the time that this was defined. No computers, no calculators, and no Doppler radar, only slide rules and log tables.
The process and math used a century ago with pencil and paper and a list of math tables is no different than todays computer systems using the same process. Just took longer back then.

I don't think any radar was ever used. Doppler radar is used to calculate direction, speed and range of a moving target; I used to manage people operating and maintaining one type, an AN/SPG-55B.
 
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Hi Bart B
That web sight does not work.
Type in Doppler Radar use in ballistics measurement in GOOGLE
Try this

2.3.3 Doppler Radar Method
Christian Johann Doppler was an Austrian physicist and mathematician who first described the Doppler effect in 1842. He found that when a radio wave, light wave or sound wave is transmitted between objects moving with respect to each other, the frequency of the wave is shifted in proportion to the speed of one object relative to the other. In a Doppler radar system, a transmitting antenna transmits a radar beam toward a moving object. The moving object reflects the beam back to a receiving antenna, which is co-located with the transmitting antenna. Because the object is moving, the reflected beam arriving at the receiving antenna has a frequency that is shifted a small but measurable amount from the frequency of the transmitted beam. This frequency shift is proportional to the speed of the moving object relative to the antennas. In our case, the moving object is the bullet, and the radar antennas are located at the firing position. Doppler radar tracks the bullet as it flies and provides measurements of the radial velocity of the bullet with respect to the antennas; that is, with respect to the firing point. The data from the radar are processed mathematically in a computer using very sophisticated software. At any point in the bullet trajectory, the results of these computations are bullet position coordinates (downrange, crossrange, and vertical directions), bullet velocity components in these directions, and even drag deceleration, all versus time of flight from the firing point. These data are available almost continuously as the bullet flies from the firing point until it impacts the ground. A firing elevation angle of several degrees can be used so that each bullet is tracked continuously as its velocity decreases from the muzzle through the supersonic, transonic and subsonic velocity regions before impact. Knowing the position and velocity of the bullet at any two points along the trajectory makes possible the calculation of a BC value for bullet performance between those two points. Infinity can be used for the BC calculation.

The Doppler radar method is far and away the best method of measuring ballistic coefficients, mainly because it provides measurements of bullet performance throughout bullet flight from supersonic velocity levels through subsonic velocity levels. However, Doppler radars are just not readily available. The radar system is very expensive, and a large computer complex is necessary to process the radar data to produce position and velocity data. A crew of several experts is required to operate the instrumentation and process the data. The cost of these capabilities exceeds the affordability limits of all sporting bullet manufacturers, and Doppler radar facilities are available only at some military sites.

For the past several years, these authors and other Sierra representatives have been privileged to participate annually for two days in a series of tests conducted at the U.S. Army Yuma Proving Ground near Yuma, Arizona. The Gun Position (shooting site) used for these tests is equipped with a high performance Doppler radar. The facilities are provided by the U.S. Army for tests planned and conducted by the Association of Firearm and Toolmark Examiners (AFTE), which is an association of forensic criminalists from U.S. and international law enforcement crime laboratories. The authors are technical advisory members of AFTE and have suggested tests to be conducted at the Yuma Proving Ground. Measurements of ballistic coefficients versus velocity for a number of bullets of different shapes have been performed over the past three years, and examples will be described in a later subsection
 
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Hi mehavy
My time in radar goes back to radar and fire control on WWII Pickett cruisers where our main search radar was the SK-2 with a beam width of 20 degrees in azimuth. I was a systems engineer on the TALOS SAM Fire Control system used by the USN. I also worked at the WSMR with the Navy. In those days we worked with the gunners quadrant and as a Navy entity we had to be familiar with the fact that there were two different angular measurement systems. The USN used ~6280 mils to the circle and the US Army artillery used 6400 mils to the circle while the Infantry used 6280 mils to the circle. WSMR was/is a US Army missile test base.
Believe me I was one of the first to plank down $400 for a HP 45 calculator and lay aside my slide rule. I aggravated to the HP 34 and the HP 15c programmable calculators.
FWIW
 
For Bart B
Try this web site
ExteriorBallistics.com
I am familiar with that site's info on doppler radars. While reasonably accurate for bullet speed down range, angular accuracy relative to beam center is not even close to what bullet holes on target show.

I am also aware of what a search for "Doppler Radar use in ballistics measurement" in a web search says. Seen it before.

Lake City ammo plant now uses electronic targets to sense bullet position and the maximum error (5 mm, about 2 seconds arc) is not an issue at 600 yards. I don't think any radar at firing point cannot resolve that small of angular error/resolution 600 yards away.
 
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Sorry for the repeated post

After reviewing my statics reference:
Mean = Average.
Defined as the sum of the values of an event divided by then number of events.

Median
is defined as: the value where the number of values above the median value is equal to the number of values below the median without regard to individual values.
In the series below,

19,14,10,-7-6,4,3
The median is Seven

If you had the individual values you could compute te standard deviation
IMHO
FWIW
You are correct. Call it a senior moment (longer than a moment, unfortunately) or I am not as sharp as I thought. I will read for a while and let you guys sort this out.
 
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