Shot Group Card

so you take a perfectly good handgun and file down the front site - you know its worth zero after that ? So what will the new owner that can actually shoot do when he gets it?

your not sighting in a military rifle to adjust for individual "eyesight", your adjusting the weapon to be accurate - an individuals weapon can be adjusted on the bench if it needs to be - I often take a pickup load of AKs to the range with my good shooters and adjust the whole units weapons en mass . The ak front site alignment tools are far and few between and I hat the gaggle fxxk of going through BZO with new soldiers. Once its zero'd we work on fundamentals and everyone qualifies with that weapon - never had a problem with that

the sites shouldn't line up any different in a bench or in your hands - and no - at 25 meters its point of aim point of impact for all commercial rounds.

if your consistently missing the X or the black or whatever your doing something wrong - that needs to be corrected before you go filing down front sights - thats insane.


all im saying is if the gun shoots accurately you need to adjust your shooting - not the gun.


any problem can be fixed by a competent instructor - you should invest the money you lose on the guns value on a couple sessions with an instructor that knows what they are doing

and no - its not geometry the same points line up the same for everyone if they are using their fundamentals. Do you think the military of the world adjust accurate guns to compensate for poor shooters? No they train them to shoot correctly - I dont know what constitutes a "sweet spot" on an eye but the "geometry" would only adjust for the diameter if the width of the pupil (a fully dilated pupil at most)
 
so you take a perfectly good handgun and file down the front site - you know its worth zero after that ? So what will the new owner that can actually shoot do when he gets it?
Click to expand...

I've taken a fair amount of game, won a few pistol matches, been on a couple of pistol teams, and done some stunt shooting in my time. Not too bad for not being able to actually shoot. My guns worth zero when I sell them? I don't think so.

This gun has had its sights "tweaked" some:

100_0004.jpg


Doesn't look worthless to me.

the sites shouldn't line up any different in a bench or in your hands - and no - at 25 meters its point of aim point of impact for all commercial rounds
Click to expand...
.

The sights don't line up any differently, the gun recoils differently. And the Federal 180gr JHP and the Winchester 240 gr. JHP won't shoot to the same point. Both are commercial .44 Magnum rounds.

......you should invest the money you lose on the guns value on a couple sessions with an instructor
Click to expand...

Funny thing, I've never lost money on any gun I've sold or traded, usually made a tidy profit.


Bob Wright
 
Last edited:
Similar triangles would say that to be 2" off at 25yds your eye would only have to be ~.06" off - assuming the distance from your eye to the gun is 2'. It wouldn't account for big changes, but it could account for something. I don't think it's that unheard of for two people who shoot well to shoot the same gun to a slightly different poi.
Bob seems to know what he's talking about, and I'm willing to believe that he's not lying about his poa changing after his surgery, so something must have happened. The eye's point of focus shifting was my best guess. I could absolutely be wrong.
 
Autochuckers are fairly placid about POI being "generally" the same with factory loads (.45 ACP excluded), but revolvers are a whole different critter. Obviously an autoloader has to have it's ammo loaded to a certain level or it won't cycle, but a wheelgun cares not if you load a wax bullet or an Elmer Kieth Memorial Magnum.

IME, it's quite possible for different shooters to have very different POI/POA issues with fixed sight handguns. It really does not show up till you get past 10 or 15 yards or shoot at small targets. The B21 targets hide a lot of this in many organizations.
 
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree Bob. As long as you disclose to the person you sold it too that the guns sights were filed and that he isnt going to use it for anything but paper punching and hes fine with using Ky Windage

Al i still dont get the whole "geometry" and perspective notion and how an accurate gun can be inaccurate in the hands of an accurate shooter

I cant find the math - if the eye A has only .2 inches of play (actually .1 inches if centered in the pupil) and the distance to B is 24 inches (high side for long arms) were dose the "variable come in??

B is not an intersection but an endpoint in the equation because b,c,d are not a variance in a shot - it lines up like it lines up ?

Alignmentvariables_zps0747df60.jpg



and as long as a proper site picture is used:


SightPicture_zpsc3ffc01a.jpg




what can affect a "perspective" - you either have a gun lined up or you dont - This has been vexing me since bob posted - I have nightmares of a poor little gun screaming in pain "I DIDNT DO ANYTHING WRONG" as bob files the poor little guys sight post down in his dungeon
 
The gun is moving before the bullet leaves the barrel. Different holds/grips will get different impact points.

I too, would expect two different, accurate shooters to hit two different places on the target using the same sight picture.

On the card, are you sure anticipating recoil results in high/right hits? I thought that would manifest itself in pushing the gun down resulting in low hits.
 
if the sight picture is lined up the same then the strike of the round will be the same . In reference that graphic - bcd line up like it lines up - you could weld a steel bar from the rear site to the center of the bull - the lineup is what it is

what i am missing i guess is what goes on behind the rear site that could change the strike of the round if they have a correct sight picture.

I BZO / Zero guns for students all the time - when its zeroed its zeroed anyone can hand a gun to anyone else and get the same results. My job is to teach the students how to get consistent accurate shot-groups using the fundamentals after the zero is good. I've never been unable to do that and have never had to physically change the sights because of some "individual sight picture"

I think the high shot comes from the cowboy shooters stuff - I dont see high very often and when i do its having the front sight high in the sight picture - easy fix
 
But on many revolvers the line from the top of the rear sight to the top of the front sight lines up on the target well above the bore axis. Do you really think everyone is going to allow the muzzle to climb the exact same amount as the bullet travels down the barrel?
 
There is no doubt that different people had different points of impact with what they assume to be the same. I don't know exactly what the difference can be attributed to, all I have are different theories why. But it IS a fact that it happens.
 
sfmedic, your graphic is excellent, and it makes it easier to discuss this target.

Your sight picture shown is how I sight a handgun, but others prefer (or naturally use) a different sight picture. I know many shooters who use a 6:00 hold, and they want the target centered above the front sight post. How high above? well, that is hard to say, and it is one reason why I like to center the target on the top edge of the front sight.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top