Short "shotgun" for bear . . . ?

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Prof Young

New member
Shooters:

Was reading old thread about bear protection for fishermen. Take some bear spray and a big hand gun is the conventional wisdom.

I'm wondering if the shockwave and others like it have found a place in filling this need?

Let's talk.

Life is good.
Prof Young
 
Bill is right: it's hard to hit anything with a stock Shockwave. And that's why I added the Laser Saddle and TL-Racker. It took a bit of adjusting, but now it's an accurate, shoot-from-the-hip gun.

I don't use it for bear protection, but I probably could (with slugs) if needed.
 
It would be better than a stick.


Given the choice, a .44mag would be my choice.
IF I had a Coach gun or Shockwave and didn't have a BIG revolver, I would be comfortable with 12 Ga slugs readily available.
 
Shockwaves and the like do not have pistol grips. They are birds head grips and you cannot really aim with them in the traditional sense. Not that I have any experience shooting bear but I sure would not want to try and shoot one off the hip.
 
Bill DeShivs said:
Pistol grip shotguns are darned hard to hit anything with.
Click to expand...
You are more than correct ... I wouldn't have believed it but I watched a LEO try to dispatch an attacking dog with a pistol gripped stocked 12 gauge pump , on my city street , the dog was coming towards him from down the street , he was watching the dog come
and by the time he opened car trunk and readied weapon the dog was 10 feet away and closing fast .... the LEO MISSED ... 4 shots ... the first shot at 6 feet , point blank but the LEO was unnerved by the dog's attacking ...comming in low and growling .
The dog stopped and LEO missed a second time at 10 feet ... By the time LEO jacked a third round in chamber the dog was 15 feet away on a run ... LEO shot twice at fleeing dog and dog disappeared behind a house .
I believe the guy should have practiced some fast and furious shooting with that cut down pump ... he may have been better off with a butt stocked shotgun .
The shorties are not as easy to hit with as you would imagine ...
that LEO missed 4 shots and I would never have believed it ... but I watched it happen!
Pumping another round in the chamber quickly ... messes up your sight / hold / picture ... it doesn't matter what you are shooting ... only hits count ...he (LEO) missed 4 times and had to call Animal Control ...hits count .
Gary
 
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A handgun, even in common cartridges like 9mm, 40, and 45ACP work a lot better than conventional wisdom has stated for years. My weapon of choice when around bear is a Glock 29 loaded with 200 gr hardcast ammo. But I've seen enough evidence to feel that a 45 ACP with 255 gr hardcast is suitable.
And while it is really pushing things even the big bear have been killed with 9mm.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/ha...r-attack-73-cases-96-effective/#axzz76IdUj3bu

Shotguns with buckshot have not proven to be a good option. Slugs, especially modern slugs work pretty well. If I'm hunting bear then a rifle is my choice, but for a surprise attack I prefer to keep a handgun that is always easily accessible.

A guide was killed by a grizzly 3 years ago while gutting an elk shot by a client with an arrow. He had a Glock 10mm, but left it in his pack while gutting the animal. Might have turned out different had it been on his belt.

https://snowbrains.com/jackson-guide-killed-grizzly-wyoming/
 
shotguns and bears

A 12 ga shotgun and suitable slugs, like the harder alloy Brennekes and possibly others, are commonly used as bear defense. You can occasionally see Alaska Troopers so armed on their TV series, and I know of several NPS rangers in AK who did the same. Conventional Foster deer slugs are pretty soft and would be a second choice in a shotgun, I have seen them fail to exit on deer.

Whether or not the Shockwave and their ilk are appropriate is another matter. Obtaining consistent accuracy with the birdshead and pistol gripped guns is difficult with "hip shooting". Add closing distance and a moving target and I'd think near impossible. Bringing the guns up to eye level helps a lot, but at that point why not just have a conventional buttstock?
 
I have a Shockwave (12ga) that we take camping. It is our tent gun. The idea is if Yogi tries to come in the tent, a near contact shot wont be hampered by the lack of stock. Having had the gun on the range during a number of classes, everyone wants to try it. Very few people like it. Harsh recoil, poor shootability and difficult aiming all add up to a very limited window of usefulness.

The upside is the power level (with slugs) is way up there and its easier to use in confined spaces then any like powered rifle. Who wants to sleep snuggled up to a .375 H&H anyway?
 
There is a happy medium between the ultra short Shockwave type guns that suffer from not having a stock, and a conventional standard length shotgun.
That's the bullpup.

Probably the best of them in a pump model is the Kel-Tech KS7.
It's much simpler then the complex double magazine Kel-Tec KSG, or any of the other bullpup designs, all of whom are odd-ball designs that are overly complicated.

Over all length of the KS7 is 26 inches, with an 18 1/2 inch cylinder bore barrel.
It holds 7 standard 2 3/4 inch shotgun shells, in the single magazine tube and is a 3 inch chambered gun.
It's light in weight, easy to sling or carry in a pack, and VERY handy into action.
It's far shorter then a conventional shotgun, and unlike the Shockwave types it has a butt stock that offers excellent control and fast shot on target.
The KS7 is actually .37 inch SHORTER then the stockless shockwave gun.

It offers the option of exchanging the carry handle-sight and installing a standard Pickatinny rail that allows mounting any type of sighting system.

Unlike Kel-Tec guns of the past, their new designs like the KS7 are reliable, mature designs that you can count on.
I've heard of several people who fish or work in bear infested woods who sling a KS7 over their back with a sling.
They say that due to the light weight and short length it rides out of the way, but can be swung into action fast.

cN9jtv4.jpg
 
While I liked my KSG for the limited time I had it, it was replaced by a TAC-14. Same TAC-14 rides in my truck at certain work locations, where backup is over an hour out… and management decided that agency owned M4s don’t need to be placed there.

KelTec does come up with good designs, but putting them into practice is a bit spotty. My KSG, same with my SUB-2000, required a lot of money to modify it to a point I felt comfortable with it. Maybe the KS7 would answer the main issue I had with the KSG (selector in the center position equates to dead gun… doesn’t happen with an 870 action), but I really don’t want to chance my luck again with KelTec.

For the issue with aiming, like all things, it comes down to practice and technique. If you look around, there are people that have taken TAC-14s and slugs out to 100 yards. Is it easy? No… but it can be done. My TAC-14 is braced, which makes shootability much easier, especially at further ranges. I get minute of man at 50 yards with Sluggers.

If a firearm like that is not appealing… what about a Mare’s Leg? Big bullet, going a little faster than a traditional pistol.
 
The issue I have with the short stockless shotguns is that they are too big to be good handguns. So, in order to carry them they have to be slung, or possibly in a scabbard (on your back?) or in your hands.

Since that is the case, for bear protection while fishing, I think the lack of a stock is a drawback. As far as I can see, the lack of a stock only gives an advantage in how much storage space the gun takes up, and storage space is at the bottom of my priority list for such things.
 
I own a Mossberg 590 Shockwave, and while it's obviously true that it isn't as easy to shoot accurately as a Shotgun with a conventional stock, it's a far cry from inaccurate or otherwise impossible to hit anything with.

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The Shockwave's Raptor Grip is a completely different animal than your typical Vertical Pistol Grip, as it doesn't transfer the recoil straight back into the wrist, but rather off into space. Many folks (myself included) are shocked (pun not intended) to discover that the 590 Shockwave has very little felt recoil compared to other Shotguns, simply because it just isn't transferred into the shoulder or wrist, so all you feel is a little jolt when you pull the trigger.

Furthermore, because the recoil isn't that fierce, contrary to popular belief, you can hold it up, aim down the sights, and fire the gun without it whacking you in the face. By utilizing a simple push/pull method to brace the gun, it is possible to pull off fast, accurate, safe shots with the 590 Shockwave, which can be verified by watching any experienced shooter on YouTube firing one.
Heck, even if you're not confident/comfortable shooting the 590 Shockwave while holding it up to eye level, it can still be fired fast, accurate, and safely by simply tucking the end of the grip between your bicep and pectoral muscles.

So while many folks are bound to come in here ignorantly proclaiming how a gun they've never fired or otherwise put absolutely no thought/effort into firing is impossible to score accurate hits with, not to mention how Grizzly Bears absolutely cannot be dropped by anything short of a 20mm Vulcan, take it from someone who actually owns a Mossberg 590 Shockwave; you absolutely can shoot one fast, accurately, and safely.
What's more, I think that a 590 Shockwave loaded with Brenneke Black Magic Magnum Slugs is just about the best weapon for Wilderness Defense that anyone could buy without spending a lot of money.

The Mossberg is small, lightweight, quick to deploy, and far easier to master than anyone would expect. Yes, it's larger than say a Smith & Wesson Model 500 Magnum Revolver, but it's also easier to control with two points of contact, more powerful with Brenneke Slugs, and only just a little bit heavier to boot. Plus, being a Pump Action Scsttergun, just about the only way that it can malfunction is if you shortstroke the slide, but seeing as you really only have time for one well aimmed shot at a charging bear, and you aren't realistically going to need a second shot with a 3" 12 Gauge Magnum Slug if you do your part, the only thing that you have to worry about is your own ability to take the shot.

So, I say; go long with the 590 Shockwave... *throws football* I do.
 
For all the shorty pumps faults ... it's still a mean looking SOB and the COOL factor is off the charts .
Like a Mare's Leg rifle , COOL looking , Josh Randall made it look good but a butt stock works better for us normal guys .
Gary
 
While I will freely admit to not having fired the Shockwave, I do have experience with a Mossberg 500 with a stock cut off to nearly the identical shape of the Shockwave, though the gun had a couple more inches of barrel.

2 3/4" shells, I found the recoil quite tolerable shooting birdshot but it became noticeably unpleasant moving up to #4 buck and heavier loads were quite painful.

Apparently our personal tolerances in this matter are quite different.

Recoil energy does not "go off into space". YOU may not notice it, but someone else very well might.
 
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