Short Range Bullet Performance

S

Sportdog

Moderator
I'm in the process of working up a load with my 8mmMauser and 30-06 for my upcoming bear hunt. The outfitter told me that the range that I will be shooting at will be very close, 20-30 yards. I'll be using 185 grain Remington CoreLokt's in the 8mm and 180 grain Remington CoreLokt's or Sierra 180 grain Pro Hunter RN in the 06. I'm thinking that a low or middle of the road velocity loading will allow the bullet to open up better at those close ranges and that a high velocity loading will blow through the animal and not open up enough for maximum tissue damage if I miss the shoulder. (I know, at that range I should be able to hit a gnat but I want to take into account possible "bear fever") Any thoughts or opinions? Thanks for any input.:)
 
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Typically, lower velocity means les expansion, but with the ranges you are talking about you could shoot a bear with just about anything and kill it. Just load them normally and shoot them where it counts.
 
I think you've got the right idea Sportdog, but for a different reason - at close range/high velocity I'd be more worried about the bullet fragmenting than blowing right through. I've had this happen with shorter shots on elk and deer (less than 75 yards). Nothing wrong with downloading a little bit if you expect very close shots, but I wouldn't go down too far.
 
Rather than download using Core-Lokt bullets, i suggest loading at normal pressure using a tougher bullet like Nosler Partition, or Barnes X.

Core-Lokt [IMO] are suitable for black bear. The OP didn't specify what species of bear.. The Remington CL bullet may go to pieces if heavy bone is encountered.

Consider 170gr .32 Winchester Special and .30-30 bullets if hunting black bear with '06 and 8mm reduced loads. You may or may not get good accuracy with .321-.322 dia .32 Special bullets in the 8mm..
 
While I tend to use the Sierra boat-tails in .30-'06, any of the Sierra 180s oughta work just fine. I'd load my usual load and never look back...
 
Reloading

IMO you are over thinking this. I know it is a lot of fun getting your rifles ready for a hunt-no doubt. Getting ready is a HOOT.

If you are really concerned then load a heavier bullet. No need for expensive bullets-go with a Sierra 200 grain GameKing. The only thing that is going to blow up at 30 yards is the bear. Tom.
 
For the 8mm, I, like you, would be somewhat concerned about explosive expansion.

However.... most .323" bullets on the market are designed to work in the 8mm Rem Mag just as well as the other 8mms. So, the 2,100-2,500 fps you'll get out of the Mauser is probably already close to an ideal velocity. (The 8mm Mag would push the same bullet 2,900-3,100 fps.)

I haven't had an 8mm Core-Lokt grenade in an animal yet... so I think you should be alright.
 
Hogghead

:D:D:D:D There is no doubt in my mind also that I am over thinking this! I'm really geeked up about this bear hunt. We have a point preference draw system here in Michigan and at my age I may not get another chance to hunt for Black Bear here in my home state and my financial situation is going to be tested to hunt out of state so I'm just on a mission to do this thing right. I've taken a fair number of whitetails and one mule deer in Wyoming but this is my first (and maybe last) bear hunt so I want to give myself every possible advantage within my power. Thanks to everyone for their comments. They really are appreciated.:)
 
Think of it like this, lay into a pool, you sink right down, the water moves around you....no go about 30 feet in the air and try to "lay" down in that same pool SMACK! BELLY FLOP!
Same way with bullets. Higher velocity means more drag wich means greater expansion. So if you want MORE expansion....go with the higher velocity (belly flop)...less...go with lower or a stronger bullet. :P
Cheers
 
dipper

Two reasons the guide gave me for the close range. #1 Bear are difficult to judge for size and if you are close you will be able to do it better, especially in low light conditions. #2 Hunt/Bait locations are drawn for at the camp and all set ups can be used for rifle, muzzle loader, or bow. He also talked about the thrill of being up close and personal with the animal. About five years ago a friend and co-worker shot a smallish sow when the bear came in during low light and he was about 55 yards away from the bait station. He felt bad about it but said the bear looked good from where he was. I'm fine with being close if I can prevent that from happening to me. I don't feel the need to shoot a giant but do want at least an average boar. I have seen some pictures of some very large sows so if the bear looks big, I will pull the trigger. It is not my desire to shoot a sow but if it is a very large one I'd be OK with it. Sows with cubs are not legal so that is not going to happen.
 
I think you're fine with the bullets you've chosen. I've used the Corelokt without problem and I know many people who think the Sierra game king found nose are perfect for shorter range hunting.
No need to slow the bullet down imho.
 
"Down, Boy! Relax! You're trying to pick flypoop out of pepper, and that's not the wisest of career paths!"

:D:D:D

Just load up most any old 180-ish-grain bullet and play Dan'l Boone and (as he spelled it) go kill a bar.
 
Art

OK Art! That's the consenses opinion so I'll just work my loads up like I always do.:D:D:D:D:D Thanks to all who offered their opinions. Much appreciated.:)
 
My opinion, and mine only, if your going on the hunt of a lifetime, and a box of corelokts cost 24 dollars and a box of nosler partitions costs 40 dollars, why risk it? So load partitions, and NEVER think about it again.

For fifty years they have been the bullet against which all have been compared. And thats for a reason. They work. Every time.

So go buy a box for the -06 and have at it.
 
gun totinfool

I have Nosler Partitions on my reloading bench as I type but the outfitter recommended Core-Lokt's or Ballistic Tips. He is a reloader also and he must feel that the Partitions won't open up enough at the shorter ranges. When I contacted him prior to booking I asked about using Partitions or Speers Mag Tips and he said that I should use the Core-Lokt's or Ballistic Tips. My opinion was the same as yours but due to his experience I am going with the Core-Lokt's, which by the way I have had very good luck with on whitetails so I do feel comfortable with them. Thanks for your input.
 
Simply put, the outfitter is WRONG. the whole concept of the partition is a soft front that opens wide, and secure, secondary rear section that holds it weight and drives the expanded front end thru the animal.

Use the partitions. They work. Simplest choice to make, I have killed elk, black bear, hog, white tail and mulies plus some exotics in texas that all died to one good shot from a partition. I have yet to ever hear of someone using the right partition and having bullet failure. The only things that penetrate better than partitions are hardcast lead or FMJ.

I don't know where he came up with the idea that a partition would not open up enough, but its wrong. My problem with bullets have been with BT's that opened up way too fast if they hit any bone. I have several jackets from BT's here where on white tail they just shed the core and leave a jacket 3 inches in or so. Sure I have recovered the animals, but its usually been after more than one shot or when used on small antelope. I dropped BT's from use except on stuff I wish to blow up. (prairie dogs, bunnies, woodchucks etc_)

A bear is not armored but it hides its vitals well inside a deep layer of fat, bone and muscle. I have hunted black bear with hard casts and with partitions, and have yet to be disappointed.
 
I'm thinking that a low or middle of the road velocity loading will allow the bullet to open up better at those close ranges and that a high velocity loading will blow through the animal and not open up enough for maximum tissue damage if I miss the shoulder.
Click to expand...

The 180 gr. is designed to penetrate, but won't "blow through" the critter without expanding. It may very well penetrate through and through, even if it hits bone.

With rifle bullets, as with pistol, expansion is influenced by velocity. The bullets you described are not controlled expansion and higher velocity may cause them to expand more and penetrate less, but you won't over drive them at any '06 velocities.

With a controlled expanding bullet like a Nosler or Barnes, the base stays in tact no matter what, and the bullet penetrates more as velocity increases. The front part expands at any velocity, but is controlled and can only open up so much.

I don't think you have to worry about all that stuff with the '06 and the bullets you described. It's the bullets going too slow to expand that overpenetrate.

A velocity of about 2500 or 2600 fps sounds right up your alley. Check your manual, but I'm guessing about 50 to 52 gr. of IMR 4350. Factory 180 is about 2750 fps. with a 24" bbl.
 
Sportdog is your hunt in the lower or upper Mich. Another reason for the close distance to the bait is bear are more at ease in heavy cover. Being a professional Bear guided for the last fourteen years I have lead hunters 23 Mich. black bears. The average bear killed in the state is 100 lbs. dressed 140 lbs. Live weight. Don’t get me wrong we kill bigger bears every year but that is the exception not the rule. A good way to judge the size of a bear is to look at its ears if they stand tall it is a smaller bear the less ear you see the bigger the bear. If possible ask to sit all day have the guided walk you in in the morning
With bait and ring the dinner bell ( Often a bear will be laid up within a couple hundred yards of the bait ) Have him ring the dinner bell again around 6:00 pm. 50% of the bear we have taken have been in the evening 35% between 1:00 pm & 4:00 pm. The rest the first two hours of day light. One of the biggest mistakes I see hunters make is to not take the whole week off for the hunt. This is why it is important when I first started bear hunting you could buy a tag over the counter vary few hunters. Then Canada closed there
Spring bear hunt the number of hunters here tripled ( lottery ) this translated in to more bait in the woods. The bear seem to get tired of the bait and go back to there natural habits for a week. The last four years This has happened mid week before the hunt extending into the first few days of the hunt. I have seen good baits with four to six bears visiting go dead cold over night. A word of caution if the hunt is on state land set up a day around the end of Aug. to visit your guided have him take into a couple of his baits. Take note of the following ( type of bait any fruits or vegetables not processed are illegal , any containers are illegal Cutting of trees or limbs over ¾ “ illegal any thing smeared on the trees illegal if you are the one sitting on the bait you will get the ticket not the guided ) Meat & fish parts are a No no I have had two hunters insist on meat & fish both unsuccessful a great bait in the spring ( no spring hunt ) but not the fall. make sure he is covering the bait vary well with logs you are hunting bear not skunks , raccoons & coyotes. As for bullets Core locks are jest fine I have had hunters use 44 mag. 30-06 .270 smoke poles .308 30.30 .35 rem. all worked vary well and all left a exit wound I prefer the 45/70 300 gr. Jhp. Tracking in a cedar swamp is difficult under the best of conditions & bear jest don’t bleed well to much fat I like to brake um down. If you are looking for a eater I would suggest One below 250 lbs. as they get gammy fast after that. Be sure to get the hide off as fast as possible and cool With ice. I have some little tricks I would be happy to pass on to you if you would like. Contact me at deadstreamoutfitters@gmail.com

longun
 
I use partitions in both my 06' and 300 win mag. I have shot many game animals with both 180 and 165 gr. partitions and the bullet has never failed. I shot an elk last year at 65 yards with full house 300 loads and a 180 gr. partition. The bullet was not recovered but the elk was dead in its tracks.

The only thing i do not like about partitions is the soft tip. I have found when sending home another round and if the round was not shot, the soft lead tip is damaged. It is one thing that bothers me with the bullet.

PS do not let the outfitter talk you out of a suppieor bullet.

Rhys
 
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