Shootout in Utah Mall

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The next far better off group is the one that has considerred the situation and set up some rough rules on how to behave in such a situation.
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This is a terrible tragedy, and I for one do not have the answer.
One person carrying could make all the difference.
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If I understand the article, there was one off duty cop present, he very well could have saved a number of lives.

If it ever gets to the point where there would be multiple CCWs in a similar situation, and they all had the opportunity to draw down on the BG, would they be able to discern that the other CCWs were the good guys? I'd hate to be shot or to shoot another person thinking he was in league with the BG. All a guy would have to do is wear plain clothes, carry a handgun, and hunker down behind something and he wouldn't be able to be differentiated among the others. The fact that he walks in brazenly upright, wearing a trenchcoat, blasting away, helps us figure out the nut case is the primary target.

This is just a thought as I sit safely away from trouble and have time to consider 'what if's'
 
All a guy would have to do is wear plain clothes, carry a handgun, and hunker down behind something and he wouldn't be able to be differentiated among the others. The fact that he walks in brazenly upright, wearing a trenchcoat, blasting away, helps us figure out the nut case is the primary target.
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Excellent point. We have one thing going for us though in these types of shootings. The criminal is usually trying to:

1.) Make as big a display as possible. Marching through the mall with a shotgun or rifle blasting away is just "cooler" to this type of nut.

2.) Is suicidal, or at least inclined to suicide by cop. They are not taking cover because they do not plan on walking away.

3.) NOT tactical thinkers who have thought out anything beyond go in, killl lots of people, die in a hail of gunfire and get on TV. Their concept of tactics includes watching Hollywood movies.

The type of person content who is concerned about self preservation does not start a gunfight to kill civies in an aread certain to draw a rapid response from many police officers. Certainly not in a place like a mall with video observations and the ability of the police to approach from any direction. THis person most likely will stand out as a nut job. After engaging and eliminating I would advise taking serious cover until the cavalry arrives as well as holsterring your weapon in a concealed condition. Let the repsonding LEOs know of it in a way to make THEM feel safe, most likely meaning when you are prone with multiple guns pointed at you and expect to be treated as a suspect.

Aside from the ramage killer described above who does what they do for recognition (even terrorists fall partly into this category. Although they may have a plan to escape they have no intention of perfomring their attack in a low key manner. Blating away into fleeing crowds makes better headlines after all.)

The other most likely gun fight in a mall is between gangbangers in which case there will be a rapid firing of multiple shots between two or more parties followed by the parties running off in opposite directions to flee aprehension. They do NOT want to get caught and are not standing around to hose down third parties. Innocents may still get hit but they are not the object of the attack. This is likelty to be "over" before anyone can react.
 
Some good discussion here regarding tactics, identification and responsibilites.

A few of my thoughts.

  1. Don't go looking for trouble.
    If the shooter comes your way before you can exit, then you can deploy lethal force.
  2. Get you & yours to safety as quickly as possible.
  3. In the event you are near the shooter, seek cover and/or concealment rapidly.
  4. If you and yours are exiting the rear of a store and you are the only armed person, consider being the last one out. Not from heroism, but to deter the BG's aim or pursuit if he sees people leaving.
  5. Properly identify your target! As Musketeer pointed out, a crazy individual may be easy to spot. Differentiating a running gangbanger from a poorly dressed Joe CCW'er will be more difficult.
  6. Do NOT draw your weapon until you are in a position to use it. If shots are fired and you're running with a bunch of people, gun in hand, a cop or CCW'er may think you are the shooter.
  7. Do NOT verbally challenge an active shooter. Align your sights and squeeze!
  8. Forget "fair play", such as not taking the shot when the shooter is reloading or because he is walking away from you. End the threat!
  9. If the shooter does go down, retain your covered position and cover the subject. He may have another weapon and/or not be as badly hurt as you think he is. Keep others away too, there is no sense in giving him the gift of a hostage.

In reviewing the above, we might boil this down to an acronym, just like PD's and CCW instructors like to do. That acronym might be CRAP!

C - Cover is your friend, find it, use it; even if that means exiting the area.
R - Reconnoiter the situation, if you can, to identify the hostile(s).
A - Assess the situation and develop your plan
P - Perform your action plan (retreat, wait or engage)

(Former-military readers will understand the need for an alternative plan since no plan survives initial contact. Feel free to expand it to CRAAP! You will anyhow.) :D
 
Good points Bill !! ....Can anyone confirm that the shooter was a Bosnian refugee ? The name certainly fits !
 
Just another event to get the liberal gun control minded congress in the more gun control mode. They just don't get it. With all the laws already on the books, a low life scum sucking moron is not going to obey them. Pass a law that says all sane minded non criminal American Citizens over 21 must carry at all times. :D
 
Worst case scneario SLC yesterday

I've seen this kind of news lots of times, but for some reason the tragedy in Salt Lake City's Trolley Square mall yesterday is sticking with me. Maybe because I lived in Utah, and have been to that mall. Even eaten dinnner there. Five people of all ages killed randomly when a mixed up, messed up, kid bent on killing decides to have his payday.

I don't know why people do that, and I don't spend much time trying to know why. I just know it happens sometimes. An armed off-duty police officer helped bring down the gunman. On the SLC news, they show a family who was in a children's clothing store at the mall when it happened. The family found a utility closet to hide in until it was over. They couldn't see, but could still hear the mayhem from inside the closet. The young woman is in tears, and her husband just looks stoic.

For some reason I put myself in the young father's shoes. He's standing there for the news crew doing the interview with his shirt and tie on. Probably just took a quick trip to the mall with his wife and child after work and didn't get a chance to change clothes. He did the best he could, and helped protect his wife and child. But ... 'If only,' I think. If only he was armed he would have felt more prepared to protect his family. He wouldn't have felt any less terror, but maybe he would have felt he had better tools and awareness to do what he needed in order to protect his family. To protect others' families. If only.

As I'm sitting here typing this my daughter comes up and tells me they practiced a 'Code 50' at her elementary school today. She's not sure what it means, but she describes how they shut and lock the classroom doors. They do it to practice in case there's a day when somebody comes into their school that makes them 'uncomfortable.' I picture her principal standing there using these words to address the kids. Uncomfortable. They don't really understand what could happen. He does. He watches the news. He has to translate what happened into a plan for his elementary students and use words like 'somebody that makes you feel uncomfortable.'

I've never pictured myself as somebody who would carry, but I think that would all change if I were the young father in the TV interview outside Trolley Square Mall. In fact, my thinking is starting to change now.
 
Yeah... There's not a thing wrong with self preservation. What would have happened in Luby's in TX if just one of the restaurant patrons had been carrying? I can't say for sure, but it definitely could've been a much different headline on the papers the next morning...

Jason
 
An off-duty officer from Ogden was in the mall and involved in the shooting, said Ogden police Sgt. Blaine Clifford, who declined to release the officer's name.

The officer was not injured, but "I don't know anything more," Clifford said.
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The off duty officer was nearly shot by an on duty Patrol Officer...
Once ID'd, they came at the perp from two directions and the off duty Detective shot the perp and some additional Officers responding to the 9-1-1 call came in from behind and killed him with AR's and I believe, a riot gun...

The perp was a 17 year old Bosnian living here in Salt Lake City with his mother... nothing more has been released on him... as yet...
I love and hate stories like this. I hate that people died. I love that it reminds me why i carry every day.
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All of the local gun shops were selling guns and CC classes at "land office" speed today... all day...
One person carrying could make all the difference.
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One person did make the difference... The Off Duty Ogden LEO... He was carrying the Kimber 1911 Compact 45ACP...
And the elapsed time from the first 9-1-1 call to the end-of-threat was less than 7 minutes.
NOT three hours like Columbine... :mad:

The three hours wait was to clear the building one area at a time... there had been eyewitness reports of a "another shooter" which turned out to be the Off Duty LEO...

There have been a total of 80,000 CCW permits issued in Utah since the right to carry law went into effect... I think about five or six years ago?

Many of these are non-resident visitors, but the majority are residents...

There very well could have been several CCW's in the Mall but the Utah CCW law requires them to flee... if possible... they must be under imminent threat to self or bystander... they may NOT proceed to the scene and take up the fight...

ONE MORE THING...
The Trolley Square Mall has signs posted at the entrances... stating that guns are not welcome on these premises. :mad: :mad:

If one of my loved ones was killed or injured in this attack... I would sue the s*** out of them and make them take those damned signs down...

They might as well have read, "Only criminals may bring guns into the mall."

It was a written invitation to the perp... who walked right past those signs like they weren't even there... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Like duuuhh!
 
He was a Bosnian muslim.
Hmm, the guy who drove his car into the crowd was muslim, the mobile sniper was a muslim.
Wow, is there a pattern here?
 
I live in SLC and often dine at that particular mall with friends- in fact the last time I had dinner there was with two Secret Service agents. Naturally the anti-gun signage is ignored, but it is there, as I believe it is in all malls owned by the Simon corporation.

I will point out a few items of interest. One, that mall is not a modern type mall - it's a converted old building, originally a trolley station, as the name evokes.

As a result, there are many corners, lots of hard surfaces of brick and wrought iron, two levels, and relatively narrow hallways. Lighting is relatively dim.

Lots of places to seek cover. Lots of defensible positions. But, difficult to see past, say, 15-20 meters due to numerous obstructions, decorations and the like.

Tactically, this particular place is very difficult from the standpoint of quickly identifying the number of threats, direction of threats, and in particular, knowing what might lie beyond a target. All of this would be very challenging in a place like that.

I was not there last night. I do not *know* what I would have done (though, as a four time Gunsite graduate, I would like to think I would act appropriately).

If I were there, I would likely have sought cover and prepared to engage if the perpetrator came within range. Distasteful, and definitely against my personal tendencies (which, before training, would be "to go hunting", but my instructors taught me that lesson in a particularly effective manner.

Given these factors, I believe the odds of any armed citizen being in the right place at the right time with the right opportunity to take a clear shot- are definitely reduced. And Utah law notwithstanding, going "hunting" for an indeterminate number of goblins armed with long arms, when one is carrying a pistol, is ill-advised.

While I am dismayed that this criminal was able to do what he did, I can understand on some level why he was not engaged, decisively, in as timely a manner as we all wish. And, I am thankful that this vermin will not burden our criminal justice system.

If there is any good coming from this, I suppose one small aspect of it might be found in the attitude of at least eight of my co-workers, who today sought my advice on obtaining their own CCW permits.
 
BobR., the guy who let me wait in his car while waiting for a tow truck on I-94 today was a Muslim, too. Prejudicial thinking is the kind of things antis do. Don't fall into the trap.

Or, if you prefer, I could start listing terrible things done by Christians too.
 
Legal & Political:
Round table discussions range from the Bill of Rights, to concealed carry, to general political issues.
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General Discussion:
A place for general discussion and Member hob-nobbing. Posts must be Firearms related.
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Feeling generous, I will consider this a "roundtable discussion of concealed carry" and move it to L&P. However, I make this point: if a few posts I've read here are any indication that this will turn into a muslim-bashing thread or a Bosnian-bashing thread for those of us with 'sticks and stones' to wield, it will not last long.
 
As I'm sitting here typing this my daughter comes up and tells me they practiced a 'Code 50' at her elementary school today. She's not sure what it means, but she describes how they shut and lock the classroom doors.
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A coworkers's daughter described the same thing to her. She related it to me but neither of them had any idea of what the reason for it was... My coworker is a happy sheeple, she doesn't want to know the truth. I looked at her and said "Columbine." Her response was "Oh, then it is good they had the exercise." When I asked her how an unarmed teacher behind an interior locked door is going to stop an armed attacker she didn't have an answer...

Like another poster I too have mixed feelings when these things happen. On the one hand it is a horrible tragedy. On the other it serves to justify the time and effort I expend on owning, carrying, and remaining proficient with my firearms. I find the day after something like the the sheeple who I associate with and who know my "hobby" seem quieter than normal.
 
Bud Helms and others have a valid point here. There are plenty of rampage shooters who are not Muslims. It is more likely that this was another maladjusted youth without proper upbringing and a host of personal problems. There are enough of these teen rampage shooting cases to NOT immediately assume it is some form of Muslim terrorism. If evidence comes to light otherwise then it can be declared as such.
 
Or, if you prefer, I could start listing terrible things done by Christians too.
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If the criminal commits a crime for the sake of his religion... it is still a crime and the MOTIVE becomes a legitimate subject of discussion...

However, we don't know this young man's motive... no matter how suspicious it looks...

Maybe he had a brain tumor or an aneurysm...

But, if a man in Israel blows himself up, along with fifty or so other people on a bus... it is perfectly reasonable to assume he was not a Jew or a Christian, and that he was religiously motivated... :rolleyes:

Concealed carry is more and more necessary everyday... and this may, in fact, be one of the reasons...

Damn good thing this isn't Israel... because over here, we are just bigoted and ignorant... :rolleyes: :barf:
 
My, but this thread has made the rounds... :eek:

As I recall, this started out in Tactics and Training. Then someone moved it to General. Then it got moved it to L&P.
Bud Helms said:
Feeling generous, I will consider this a "roundtable discussion of concealed carry" and move it to L&P.
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I feel it was a better T&T thread. But it's been moved around enough times as it is.

So here it stays.

I'm also going to go further than what Bud said. Any further reference to this persons religion or ethnic group, unless it can be proved that it has some direct relationship to the rampage, will be your farewell post.

Now, having written the above warning, let's all take the opportunity to discuss what we would have done had we been there and the relative legalities of what we would have done.
 
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