Shooting styles for law enforcement

Ah yes the body armor arguement. I think I would rather not get hit by blading myself to the target thus cutting my target profile. Not to mention I love my Second Chance but I will not count on it to save my life. What about the two thirds of the day you are off duty and not wearing vest (or do you wear yours off duty? Do you detectives wear a vest? How about your narcs? Many on duty LEOs still don't wear vests. How are you going to square off to a threat from behind the wheel of your car? You can't. Can anyone tell me how you retain your weapon when it is punched out in front of you. Let's train for the real world not the reel world.
 
Gee mercop, you're not associated with a CAR system training school, are you? You seem so.....unbiased?

:rolleyes:

I wish I had the magical power to deflect bullets simply by blading myself to the target. And since when is the CAR system the one system that offers a retention position?
 
How much of a reduction in target size is achieved by blading one's body? Sure, you can cut your torso cross-section in half if you stand completely sideways-on, but in reality it is going to be a heck of a lot less of a reduction. Contrast the benefits (real, but not as large as one might think) with the risks of moving your trauma-plate off center (and thus off the vitals it is designed to protect) and also moving the armpit hole into play...

I'm reminded of HMS Hood for some reason at this point...

I dunno. Blading is good in many situations...not so sure about once the bullets actually begin to fly. Square up, punch out, shoot. If he's close enough that punching out would be tantamount to handing him a weapon...fine. Hold your weapon in close, use body indexing and start pulling the trigger. You won't miss.

JMO,

Mike
 
So let me get this right. When the bullets begin to fly I should be sure to stand in such a way that I place me little trauma plate between me and the BG. I am a peace officer and as such employ what we refer to as the interview stance (bladed). It makes sense to shoot out of that since in the position it is easy to move back and/or off line by slide stepping. And yes I am a CAR instructor. After being involved in a shooting in 2000 I found out how my body really worked under stress. It was not like it worked on the range. I became even more involved in firearms training (as an instructor) and martial arts. Then the CAR came along and I realized it gained it's stability through body mechanics and harmonious muscle placement. For my agency I wanted a full house fighting system that blended defensive tactics with firearms. I along with a lot of help did this with traditional Ju Jitsu and the CAR. They both work from body mechanics not strength and speed. The CAR is the BEST weapons retention system I have ever seen. I am a conduit for the folks I train. It my mission to give them the best training I can put together. If the only training you do is firearms you are kidding yourself. Most gunfights are at 3-5 feet, in 3-5 seconds and consist of 3-5 rounds. This is where CAR excells. I like to train for distance and believe everyone needs that tool in their toolbox. But unfortunatley many cops are lazy. By using CAR any cop can get four rounds off under a second into center mass. One thing you will notice of it's detractors is that none of them have been through the class. I will not even get into how it will let even the smallest shooter shoot slugs from a 12GA one handed with no problem. Unless I am missing something is there anyway that you can get rounds off from a traditional stance at 3-5 feet from the BG? If you say disengage, what if you are in a project hallway or behind the wheel of a car.

If you go the website I am the second to last instructor listed.
 
Mercop:

Some questions that I have regarding the C.A.R. system are

1) How stable are you in the fight that you describe (3-5 feet from threat) while in the C.A.R. stance?

It seems to me that if you are at more or less 90-degrees to the threat, then your stability is compromised (moreso than in a conventional squared or bladed stance) should he charge into you and that you are in a less flexible position to deal with threats from multiple directions.

2) How does C.A.R. address the single person moving and shooting in the real world (360-degrees) as opposed to flat range training (180 degrees)?

Going through the C.A.R. manual and viewing the video, I don't see it addressed.

3)How does C.A.R. address someone moving into the operator from 90-degrees off the shooter's muzzle line? For instance, you are moving in C.A.R., in the "High" position, and someone, heretofore unseen, moves directly into you towards your centerline, pinning your gun in between your bodies.

The reason I ask is because with the gun in the High position of C.A.R., the gun is in a similar position (albeit with a completely different muzzle orientation) to Position Sul. Sul is often criticised as being poor from a weapon retention standpoint. With a more conventional orientation towards the threat, you are able to retract the gun from Sul into a weapon retention positon and engage the threat with the gun or protect the gun, as indictated by the particular situation.

Thanks,
 
Gomez- from the HIGH ( within say five feet) you would shoot using your shoulder to index the target. Depending how close the threat were to you when you saw them you would go to the HIGH EXTENDED and you could shoot 180 deg+ or switch hands. In reference to the gun being trapped in the HIGH my Sensei (Reddragonjujitsu.com) and I were tasked to come up with answers to these questions and we are working at it. The circle of control in the CAR is the same as martial arts. Having the gun close to you body lets you retain it while fighting with your elbows. If trapped face to face I would suggest a head but to the face or raking you foot down their shin.
 
Erick- I've been playing with the Center Axis Relock stance for a few months now. What specifically turned you off to the system?
 
Has anyone ever met someone who has attended the school and not adopted it. I guess I should just shoot weaver and get a body bunker. I have a take home car and I am off duty two thirds of the day. When off duty I do not wear body armor but still have to carry a gun. People who dismiss a technique without getting training on it may miss out on things.
 
Well, there was at least one person on this thread that said he had taken the class and only adopted the parts that fit his personal fighting style.

I have a question: When faced with multiple BG's, how do you choose which one to blade against? What if it means turning your back on one of the group?

On the video on the Sabre Tactical website, why does the instructor have his eyes on the gun during the malfunction drill?

You say that CAR allows you to get off 4 rounds in 1 second. From 3 to five feet, using indexed yet unaimed fire from retention, ANY shooting style would allow a shooter to get 4 shots COM, so long as his trigger finger is fast enough. I can do it from my Iso retention position, and I am in no way a high speed operator.

I live in the Nashville area and I would be very interested it taking a class to test out the system. Do you train private citizens or just cops?
 
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