shooting in chicago

All I have is a youtube posting. It claims the weapon was a Kel-Tec Sub 2000.

You need to do some more digging. MSN had a picture of a Kel-Tec (with to me very odd yellow coloring) and ID'd it as one of the other guns the shooter had, taken from his home afterwards.

One report I read said the police seized 5 guns from his home, 2 rifles, 2 handguns and a shotgun. That report did not identify the guns further.

The gun he used, and left at the scene (he reportedly said it fell out of his bag as he was getting away..) has been ID'd as a S&W MP-15, their version of an AR 15.
 
Nope. Not saying that the police stole them. But here's the unanswered questions, what became of the knives???

They were returned to the father that afternoon as he claimed they were actually his.
https://www.npr.org/2022/07/06/1109987663/highland-park-parade-shooting-suspect-robert-crimo-iii

Additionally, Crimo's father claimed the knives were his, and that they were being stored in his son's closet "for safekeeping," police said. Highland Park police returned the knives to Crimo's father later that afternoon.
 
The news about the knives being returned to the father came out the day after I posted asking what became of the knives.

The knives "belonging" to the father (actually, or him just claiming they were) changes nothing about my point. The police were investigating an unknown and unstable situation. Knives, guns, or anything else deemed a dangerous weapon would have been taken (to "secure them") no matter who they belonged to in the house.

The father claiming ownership allowed the police to return them to their "rightful owner" who was NOT the subject of the investigation. Had it been the son (who they were investigating) asked for their return, I do not believe he would have gotten them back, as promptly.
 
Another bit of information that has come out regarding that incident three years ago is that the guy told the police that he was a depressed drug user. Being a user if illegal drugs is a disqualifier for firearms possession. In a perfect world, one might think that this admission should have popped up when the authorities were doing the background investigation for his FOID, but apparently it didn't. In reality, he should not have been issued an FOID and should not have been allowed to possess firearms.
 
In a perfect world, one might think that this admission should have popped up when the authorities were doing the background investigation for his FOID, but apparently it didn't. In reality, he should not have been issued an FOID and should not have been allowed to possess firearms.

That's certainly clear, NOW. But back then??? not so much, it would seem.

There is a general standard (often ignored) that when evaluating someone's actions, or lack of action, one should take into account what they knew at the time.

Along with this, one should also consider the various legal standards, and the fact that unless those are met, legal action is not to be taken. And, that taking legal actions without clearly meeting the established standards can be cause for legal action against those people who made the decision to take "unwarranted" legal action.

Our problem there is that A) the very human tendency to CYA, and B) the established legal standards are not always how things SHOULD be judged, but are the way things MUST be judged.

Numerous times we can see where a mass killer was evaluated by either police, or mental health professionals, BEFORE they became a mass killer, and the threat they posed was deemed insufficient to justify legal actions.

People lie. People hide things. and sometimes, people even change....
Our system is poorly set up to deal with people who are clever enough hide their true inner thoughts, and also predisposed to give people the benefit of the doubt, when there is no evidence that meets the legal setpoints for action.

Admitting to the cops that you're depressed and using illegal drugs during their investigation is not sworn testimony, its not a conviction. SO, generally speaking, its not legal proof of anything other than the fact that the guy said it.

In this situation, the 19yr old was not charged with anything, was not ordered into mental health treatment, so the legal trigger for denial of his rights was not tripped. In hindsight, yes, that was clearly a mistake, but in light of what they knew (and decided) at the time? Tough call, I think.

So, we have an incident involving threats of harm in 2019, the authorities decided it wasn't enough to take action. THEN, 3 months later, he applies for an FOID, and I'm sure everything about the 2019 incident was still in the system. AGAIN, not enough to invoke a denial. A few months short of TWO YEARS after that, he goes on a murder spree....

Aside from the scum that pulled the trigger WHO is responsible?? Should anyone else be???

Did he, maybe, clean up his act, stop the drugs, and was an ok guy, for a while, then backslid to his earlier behavior?
OR, did he never change, and just got better at hiding his real intentions??
I don't know, I don't know that anyone can know, other than him, and about that, so far, he ain't talking....

Is there any of us who, at some point in our lives has never said something we didn't actually mean?? No one I know of...
The system is made to allow for that, and relies on human judgement to determine if there is a credible threat. Sometimes mistakes are made. This case was a bad one.

But what is the alternative?? do we go to the extreme of locking up everyone who has ever yelled "kill the quarterback!" at a football game??? Is the kid who chews his poptart into the shape of a pistol a potential mass killer?

sure, those are ridiculous examples, but remember, that if we go too far one way, its very difficult to come back. IF it is even possible, at all.
 
Another bit of information that has come out regarding that incident three years ago is that the guy told the police that he was a depressed drug user. Being a user if illegal drugs is a disqualifier for firearms possession. In a perfect world, one might think that this admission should have popped up when the authorities were doing the background investigation for his FOID, but apparently it didn't. In reality, he should not have been issued an FOID and should not have been allowed to possess firearms.

In this situation, the 19yr old was not charged with anything, was not ordered into mental health treatment, so the legal trigger for denial of his rights was not tripped. In hindsight, yes, that was clearly a mistake, but in light of what they knew (and decided) at the time? Tough call, I think.

Adding to what 44 Amp said in looking at the situation in the past from what happened now, we often see how there were "red flags" or "signs" that a person was in trouble, but how far do we carry that forward to hold against people in later life? The police do get called out repeatedly for some people and for others it is one or two and done before the folks get their lives together and become productive members of society.

If no legal action was taken against a person, do we want the report of some street cop to be the deciding factor on whether or not a person gets to exercise their rights? That would seem to be cutting out due process.

Of course, we (the pro gun community) keeps arguing that laws aren't going to stop criminals from doing what they do, right? So even if this guy's behavior did trigger a FOID denial, would that have stopped him from doing this type of thing?
 
Double Naught Spy said:
Of course, we (the pro gun community) keeps arguing that laws aren't going to stop criminals from doing what they do, right? So even if this guy's behavior did trigger a FOID denial, would that have stopped him from doing this type of thing?
There's no way of knowing. Just like there's no way of knowing if the Air Force had reported the Sutherland Springs shooter's court martial conviction to NICS if that would have prevented that massacre. It might ... or it might not.

The bottom line for me is that the gun grabbers keep asking for more laws and more intrusions into our personal, private lives and data, all the while NOT utilizing the laws and data they already have access to.
 
We can think of a law as a tool.

The persons using the gun laws/tools are all government workers. And the "toolmakers" who write law are government.

First thing to decide, are they good,effective laws or not? If the problem is ineffective law,repeal it BEFORE writing a new one.

If the problem is with ineffective government personnel or bureaucratic process, fix that BEFORE you write a new law. Example :If NICS is passing firearms purchase for a guy dishonorably discharged from the Air Force for domestic violence ,he buys a gun and shoots up a church in Texas,killing several people... Is the problem we don't have enough laws?

The finest tools don't work if you are a careless or incompetent worker. I've machined a lot of military aircraft and marine parts. Every day I thought of lives and big money depending on my work. I had to CARE every day.

Any part non conformance WOULD be traced to me and I'd be held accountable.

Instead of suing gunmakers,why are we not suing or prosecuting the government employees who fail us?

If laws and bureaucracy cannot be effective against mental illness, OK.
Then quit calling for more gun laws.
 
Instead of suing gunmakers,why are we not suing or prosecuting the government employees who fail us?

Prosecuting, I understand, and approve of, where there is criminal mis/malfeasance.

Sueing?? What good does that do?? First, I don't agree with suing the makers of anything for the criminal misuse of their product. Period.

Second, individual govt employees are generally protected against that, outside of certain specific and uncommon situations, by law.

We live in a society that has gone "lawsuit happy" and seems to think a lawsuit is the correct response to any and everything in this world that is wrong, done badly, or is just something that they don't like. Great way for lawyers to make a living, but not so good for the rest of us, I think.
 
Pardon my frustration. IMO,its illigitimate to sue Bushmaster or S+W or Daniel Defense for making AR-15's

IMO the greater responsibility is with the mediocrity of bureaucracy."He slipped through the cracks"
No,wait! Its NOT the gun! Its how YOU fail the existing law!

Its lawsuits like the one Mr Sandman won that can effect positive change.

Isn't lawsuit one way of establishing injury,and therefore standing, to challenge something like Red flag due process?
 
"oldbear 1950: "What is wrong with these kids. I am 71, was a kid once, and we did not do these crazy things, would not have even thought about anything like this."

Dunno if this is a valid answer or not. Marijuana was mentioned as possibly being part of the problem but I don't think so.

What we need I think is a link, a common denominator. This thought came to me during a discussion on another site I visit, "how many of those shooters were treated with drugs for ADHD while in school?" Kid acts up, break out the Ritalin or whatever the drug of the day happens to be. Have we created a group of potential time bombs that could go off at any time?

I thank God that I got out of school long before the Ritalin thing. Even today, I still have symptoms of ADHD. It's my nature. I would still be, at my age the class clown if the truth be known. Drugging those kids was a lazy man's cop out. :mad: Just my thought on the matter.
Paul B.
 
One thing I find remarkable, is the response being whipped up over the killer's one (possibly two) instances where the police were called and how he "slipped through the cracks in the system". He did, if you consider meeting all the legal requirements a "crack" in the system.

Compare his history with the killer at the Parkland Fla school just 4 years ago. (2018). You can find a fairly accurate brief account on Wikipedia.

As to the argument about if he had been denied legal gun ownership the massacre wouldn't have happened, I think all one can honestly say is that it wouldn't have happened the way it did. I suppose you should take comfort in the fact that this particular killer wasn't inspired by a bomber....background check for pressure cookers next on the list??
:rolleyes:
 
Would it come as a surprise to learn the perp posted hate trash online prior to the massacre:?


"The paper details how the shooter's posts 10 days before the attack described Jews as "fire retardant," and also said, "I say we just get rid of the Blacks all together."

The young man also stated that he believes Asian people should "be gassed and washed."

Earlier, on June 25, he posted: "The math is all screwed. The logistics of 6m jews doesn't make sense but i'm just retarded,"reported the New York Post.
"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...pc=U531&cvid=af4c1e391b0b487ab5a72b43b34a6e94
 
Why do people seem to think it so important what kind of trash talk the guy said online??? What matters is what HE DID. He shot and killed people.

WHY only matters to satisfy our curiosity. Did he only shoot the people he ranted about? (don't think so...) Does his criteria for target selection somehow make the crime of mass murder WORSE???

I don't think so.

I don't even care if he is classified sane, or not, that does NOT change what he did. Not one bit.
 
44_AMP: It goes state of mind, self control, stability, and judgement that such an individual held these views, and felt that publicizing them for all the world to see was his norm.

It reflects not so much on him at that point, but on those who both enabled him, and ignored him.

.
 
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What we need I think is a link, a common denominator. This thought came to me during a discussion on another site I visit, "how many of those shooters were treated with drugs for ADHD while in school?" Kid acts up, break out the Ritalin or whatever the drug of the day happens to be. Have we created a group of potential time bombs that could go off at any time?

Another myth that won't die.

https://news.wfsu.org/state-news/20...are-searching-for-the-cause-of-mass-shootings

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308220517_Psychiatric_Medications_and_School_Shootings

You do have to question how people making such claims have access to HIPAA secured information.
 
It reflects not so much on him at that point, but on those who both enabled him, and ignored him.

I disagree. While those who "enabled" him, or ignored him (and aren't those terms wide open to different interpretations) can be considered contributing factors, the murders are ALL ON HIM. And no one else.

we are being fed a guilt trip of virtually cosmic proportions, with people screaming, "why didn't you know?? Why didn't you stop him??"

TO which I am inclined to reply, why didn't YOU??? You had just as much opportunity to stop him as I did. Which was ZERO. I refuse to accept the blame for YOUR failure...NOR do I think it honest or ethical to blame the other 330million + Americans who also had NOTHING to do with the murders.

I heard a slogan on the car radio today while listening as I drove to visit a friend.

I found the slogan quite apt, and agree with his reasoning in creating it.

"It's not our guns,...
It's your SONS!!!"

thoughts?
 
...the murders are ALL ON HIM...
Nope.

If one can easily see an incipient train wreck, and do nothing about it -- or worse enable it -- you bear no small modicum of responsibility.

That does not mean the murderer is any less guilty, and should bear full brunt of what what used to be the penalty for premeditated murder.

But others should also stand for judgement as well.
 
And the usual voices are screaming for more gun laws.
The Lautenberg law is SUPPOSED to prevent domestic abusers from buying guns.
An Air Force personnel was dishonorably discharged for domestic abuse.Isn't dishonorable discharge a checkbox on the 4473? So Domestic abuse and a dishonorable discharge.
Were there enough laws? How many more do you need?
The killer passed a NICS check and legally bought the gun. Was it an Air Force employee who screwed up? Was it the people who do NICS checks? It matters.
It matters to me because a school custodian co-worker .... a wonderful woman I worked with for years, and love as a Human Being, lost a few family,murdered in that church that day, by that "slip through the cracks"

That and the call for MORE GUN LAWS.

We agree,the killer is the problem. We have idiots in Congress who sell the story ,the lie, that if they just pass enough law, they can keep guns out of the hands of killers.
What law do they need? They had laws. The infrastructure of government employees is not competent enough to say "No! You dishonorably discharged domestic abuser! You can't buy a gun!"

So a church gets shot up. "Slipped through the cracks" is not good enough.
I want accountability. WHO made the decision he could buy the murder weapon and WHY? Thats a ROOT CAUSE and it needs to be dealt with before Congress even thinks about another gun law.
 
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