Shooting Groups

I'm not sure I agree with that statement. One shot, the first shot is the most important.

Shooting groups is fun, but the first shot out of the barrel is the most critical.

You can of course get the best of both theories.

Set up a target and leave it up. Go out in the morning, shoot one bullet. Then midday shoot another, a third late afternoon.

Next day, on the same target repeat the process. Do this for 3-4 days. Check the group and move it if necessary then repeat.

You get your multi-round group, yet each shot is the critical first shot.
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I don't know of any matches you shoot one shot a day. Hunting if you do your job yes.

What is relevant is all the shots, good bad or anything.

Also each day is different temp, hold, you, etc.

I think that gets too deep into philosophical and ignores other factors.

At an extreme one day I can shoot at 45, the next day it can be -20.
 
PREACH IT MOBUCK!!!

For the rifle that i want to shoot matches with, i'm concerned with all 20 shots in the string.

For my hunting rifles, only first shots count!

And my hat is off to Mobuck!
Helping to promote safe firearm usage to disabled is very admirable, sir!!
 
I like a tight group, but I gotta have my sights spot on. I don't like repeatedly shooting into one torn up area so ill make multiple groups on a single target paper. After shooting at the bullseye, I'll aim at the ring numbers or whatever else I can focus on on the target. Groups just make sense to me. How else can you know if a good (or bad) shot is legit or just a fluke.
 
* * * Groups just make sense to me. How else can you know if a good (or bad) shot is legit or just a fluke.
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That's right, ... which is why, to reliably vet the accuracy of that load in that rifle, your 'group' (or 'groups') needs to contain a minimally sufficient number to distinguish it from merely having made a few 'holes on paper,' sometimes called an 'Elmer group' for the Fuddleys. :rolleyes:

Sure, many hunts (maybe most?) are one-to two shot affairs, so there's merit to knowing where your first cold-bore round will hit versus, say, the following four shots, which any inherently accurate rifle should still place within MOA. (And by MOA here, I'm referring to a minimum vetting distance of 100-yds. Except for rimfire rifles, 50-yd 'groups' are an uninformative joke for centerfire work, regardless of the number of shots).

However, when I go hog-hunting with my .308, for example, or engage in an extended afternoon of sniping coyotes or ground hogs with my suppressed 5.56 rifle, I'll be firing more than the typical Fuddley's 1-3 shots, quite a bit more in fact. And not necessarily fast either, except when a second or tertiary shot is needed.

But knowing what to expect accuracy-wise from a cold-to-warm barrel from firing 5-rds minimum, with a 10-rd vetting group being better for this sort of hunting, is a more reliable indicator of the rifle's inherent accuracy.

And only accurate rifles are interesting, not to mention being the ones that bring home the bacon.
 
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Hogs yes, Varmint shooting is not hunting.

So yes the hunting application has to fit the bill.

If you were hunting Cape Town Buff and they came at you in 100s, then you would want a 20 mm (and an fairly accurate one!)

For most hunting, 3 shot groups tell you what you need to know.

Target shooting 10 shots groups separate you from your ego (as often do 5 shot groups for me)
 
I’m a hunter. The first shot is the one that counts, and I’m Ok with 3 shot groups from rifles I’ve had long enough to know how they shoot. With new rifles I’ll go for 5 shot groups until I have found the load I want and have confidence it’s a shooter.
 
I have shot a lot of groundhogs with HV rifles and big scopes. These rifles are capable of
groups better than I can shoot, even rested. I have a reputation of being a good off hand
shot with a rifle. I have buddy that has been into bench rest shooting for years. He has some money in his rifles and scopes. He also has a case full of trophies. He has framed targets that are one hole. I have shot his rifles and did really well by my standards but I
wouldn't be a contender in the bench rest game. Most don't realize the money, time and
effort put into coming up with a one hole rifle. That's why I get tired of listing to guys who
have a Mosin or such that shots into one hole, all day long.
 
I have to admit when I first started using scopes, I would fire a round and then make a scope adjustment, then repeat. Basically chasing holes around my targets. It did work, but it usually involved a lot of wasted time, bullets and targets.

It wasn't until I became friends with an F-class shooter about 16 years ago that I learned to shoot the group first (10-20 rounds), then make my adjustments. Looking back, I can't believe I didn't figure that out on my own, but there it is.

Nowadays when I see someone struggling at the range to zero their rifles (usually I wait until they ask me) I'll point out that first they should shoot a group first, then measure from the center of the group to make any turret adjustments to their scope. However, as often as not, after I return to my bench, I'll see them go back to their previous habits of shooting a shot or two then spinning their turrets.
 
For me, shooting groups is great when you’re testing a new rifle and/or testing different ammo. Beyond that, I find it useless. It doesn’t bring home the dinner or the trophy. Holding a rifle still is only a small part of shooting. A fun part... but only a part.

Shooting groups at a predetermined POI is what it’s all about. Calculating drop and wind while holding the rifle steady. Doing it while standing ... after 30 pushups! Now that’s exciting/skill.

I want to shoot groups where I aim my rifle.
 
Hogs yes, Varmint shooting is not hunting.
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Wow, ... guess I'll have to alert my buddies that we haven't been 'hunting' 'yotes all these years. :rolleyes:

The only difference between hunting hogs and hunting coyotes is, for the 'yotes we're using a call from a stationary position, whereas with the hogs we're often on the move between engagements. That type of hunting is more fluid.

Either way, we'll be shooting at more hogs or 'yotes on a typical outing than the 1 or 2 deer your average Fuddley might pop from a tree stand every season.

Thus, it matters to know that the particular load I'll be using has been vetted with several 5-shot groups through the rifle at a minimum legit range (100-yds), and then dialed-in with a final, pre-hunt zero, ... which for the 'yotes with my 5.56 AR is 200-yds.
 
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For me, shooting groups is great when you’re testing a new rifle and/or testing different ammo. Beyond that, I find it useless. It doesn’t bring home the dinner or the trophy. Holding a rifle still is only a small part of shooting. A fun part... but only a part.
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You can't do the rest until you shoot good groups. I can dial it over to dead center but all that tells me is I know how to move dials the right direction.

I don't hunt anymore. Good groups are my fun.

100 yard range at least in the winter. May move to using the 300 meter for warmer weather shooting.

I don't ever expect to do the 1000 for other than interest once in a long while likely.

So, each his own, one guys fun is not another perons (seeing more women shooting) fun and or interest.

I don't hack on the hunter, I know what they are after, they like to see what I do as its interesting to shoot small groups but its no in their wheelhouse to try to match it (nor do I do anything other than tell them what I do and what they do are worlds apart). You guys don't have nice targets on your animals and you don't have a bench and you sure don't want to lug my bull barrel around.

If its a nice 1.5 inch group and centered and (X inches high) at 100 I tell them that is just fine. That is real world hunting, what I do is playing (and enjoy it)

But the basics still are there, good trigger control gets good results.

You can add in the wind and all that if you go out that far it affects what you are trying to achieve.
 
How accurate do you want your zero to be?

In SOTIC, we zero'd with 10 shot groups and generally shot 5 shot groups in training exercises.

Why?

3. Conclusions/Continuing Questions

I’ll do this as a bulleted list here for those of us who hate math/reading/attention span:

 3-shot groups cannot precisely describe the actual distribution of shots. 10-shot groups can precisely describe the actual distribution of shots.

 3-shot groups cannot precisely describe the zero of the rifle nearly as well as 10-shot groups.
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http://www.bealeinnovations.com/stats-3shotgroup.pdf

The reason 3 shot groups are not ideal is based upon physics and science. It is not based upon how you feel about it.

However, you can "pad" the statistics using a 3-shot group. Simply shoot ANOTHER 3 shot group to confirm your zero. So, six bullets at POA/POI using 3 shot groups equals a zero that is very close statistically to a zero based upon ONE 5 shot group POA/POI.

A 10 shot group is ideal.
 
I don't know about others, but what I see is the hunter group shoots a number of 3 shot groups.

I did as well and I think that deals with what is needed.
 
How accurate do you want your zero to be?
In SOTIC, we zero'd with 10 shot groups and generally shot 5 shot groups in training exercises.
Why?
Quote:
3. Conclusions/Continuing Questions
I’ll do this as a bulleted list here for those of us who hate math/reading/attention span:
 3-shot groups cannot precisely describe the actual distribution of shots. 10-shot groups can precisely describe the actual distribution of shots.
 3-shot groups cannot precisely describe the zero of the rifle nearly as well as 10-shot groups.
http://www.bealeinnovations.com/stats-3shotgroup.pdf
The reason 3 shot groups are not ideal is based upon physics and science. It is not based upon how you feel about it.
However, you can "pad" the statistics using a 3-shot group. Simply shoot ANOTHER 3 shot group to confirm your zero. So, six bullets at POA/POI using 3 shot groups equals a zero that is very close statistically to a zero based upon ONE 5 shot group POA/POI.
A 10 shot group is ideal.
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At least someone here gets it. Excellent explanatory post. Thank you.

Then, suddenly, out of the wilds, RC20 unburdened himself with:

I don't know about others, but what I see is the hunter group shoots a number of 3 shot groups.
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Yes, a group of armed humans known as 'Fuddleys.'

I did as well and I think that deals with what is needed.
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Major Fudd right there.
 
agtman:

Unlike some, I do not live in an ideal world. This is a discussion and its about respect as well.

My take is that you feel no one has the right to do it their way even if its both successful and they are ethical. They clearly need to take the US Army sniper course before they should be allowed into the woods.

Perfect is the enemy of good enough.

You miss the point. While davidsog is correct for the modern target shooting to the nth degree, people shot game for hundreds of years with a smooth bore. How could they have been so wrong? ,

Calling people Fuddly that take their game successfully just demeans you.

Your groups go to hell when you are a bit winded and lucky if you can find a way to rest before a hunting shot.

If a person consciously goes to the range, sights in his rifle and hits the target where he wants it then that is not a Fuddly.

Are there poor hunters? Of course there are. Are there people who are loose with calling names and arrogance, that is true as well.
 
I use Redfield sight in targets, with 5 bullseyes per target. I shoot 4 shot groups into 5 bullseyes, thus one box of loads per target. Only making adjustments after 5 groups. Works for me. hdbiker
 
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