Shooting distance?
- Thread starter ZVP
- Start date
Folks who buy a revolver for home defense purposes are rarely interested in 25 yd. accuracy. How many of us have a room that is 75 feet long in our house? I will routinely shoot J-frames at 25 yds at my range, but I also shoot at more realistic 25 - 50 foot distances with those short-barreled friends. I shoot the former for mid-range accuracy practice; I also shoot 25 yds for competition, but not with 2 inch barrels.
I guess I beg to differ. When I think of accuracy, I think of how well the gun will shoot regardless of the activity I am involved in.... Not just 'good enough' for CAS, or IZZZ, or ABCD, tin can shooting, or whatever flips your lid. My question is always how well does the gun do at 15Y to 25Y. If they all go into same hole at 25Y (lets say) then no matter what activity I am in, I have all the confidence in the world, that all the misses are going to be me ... not the gun, or powder, or bullet, or primer. Nothing to blame but myself. Also accuracy has nothing to do with shooting high, low, left or right. That can be adjusted for ... even on the fixed sighted single actions. You can only be as accurate as the gun/ammo combination will let you be. If the gun will only shoot 6" spatter groups at 25Y ... that is as accurate as you'll ever be, no matter how hard you try. Of course maybe 6" at 25Y is 'okay' for the 7 Yard shooting you will be doing and you are okay with it.... But that doesn't mean the gun is 'accurate' (I wouldn't put up with a revolver that can't put all 5 bullets on a 8" pie plate at 25Y). So, in summary best to know what your gun can do first before getting frustrated with your shooting.... If you have a good combination, strive to meet the guns inherit accuracy which means practice to pull in the group size. Anyway, that is how I look at accuracy. Not an expert by no means, just my way of think'n!
I should add there are exceptions to what I said ... like a tiny bellygun which would be used at almost touching distances.
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Some study a few years back found that most defensive shootings occurred at about 7 yards or less. Being accurate and fast at 7 yards therefore made sense.
Years ago a 50 yard range was standard AND a one hand hold, but it was slow, timed fire and there were more revolvers with longer barrels that are to easy to sight. This sight issue is somewhat different from accuracy, for example a 4' small artillery piece firing at a target 4 miles distance. A lot of short barrels are perfectly accurate but they are difficult to shoot due to a shorter sighting radius.
Most folks today use 25 yards. I was doing some fast cowboy shooting one hand at a small paper plate -say 9" diameter- at the range a while back and some guy thought I was a great shot because I was keep them all "on paper". I didn't think I was doing much of anything with that large a target. I'd figure 2 1/2" to 3" groups at 25 yards and 4-6" groups at 50 yards, with a one hand hold and timed fire- you won't win any contests but probably acceptable shooting. That would be with a standard sized handgun- 1911 Gvt. or 4-6" barrel revolver.
Years ago a 50 yard range was standard AND a one hand hold, but it was slow, timed fire and there were more revolvers with longer barrels that are to easy to sight. This sight issue is somewhat different from accuracy, for example a 4' small artillery piece firing at a target 4 miles distance. A lot of short barrels are perfectly accurate but they are difficult to shoot due to a shorter sighting radius.
Most folks today use 25 yards. I was doing some fast cowboy shooting one hand at a small paper plate -say 9" diameter- at the range a while back and some guy thought I was a great shot because I was keep them all "on paper". I didn't think I was doing much of anything with that large a target. I'd figure 2 1/2" to 3" groups at 25 yards and 4-6" groups at 50 yards, with a one hand hold and timed fire- you won't win any contests but probably acceptable shooting. That would be with a standard sized handgun- 1911 Gvt. or 4-6" barrel revolver.
. No distance is right ... or wrong ... except when talking accuracy...Standard Handgun shooting distance.
When I was a teenager, there were defacto accepted standards at which group-sizes could be compared for handgun shooting based on "Bullseye", off-hand, single-action, shooting (one handed, unsupported). The course of fire was usually 50 yards for slow-fire, and 25 yards for rapid fire for center-fire handguns (at that time .38 revolver and .45 automatics were pretty much standard). When one would talk about group size, it was assumed that it was a five-shot group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullseye_(shooting_competition)
In those days, after seeing and measuring enough groups, when someone would announce the size of the group he had just shot, one would know how good it was relative to those standards.
Nowadays, tradition has given way to forging ahead without spending the time to learn from what has been the tradtion before. That coupled with the demise of off-hand "Bullseye" shooting in favor of the more relevant-to-combat and self-defense practice (after all, no one today would consider one-handed shooting to be appropriate for combat/defensive shooting), that encourage double-tap, on multiple targets, the distances and the course of fire has changed.
Therefore, no standard distance except as prescribed for a particular event. But if you want to compare how good a group you can shoot compared to someone else, use five shots at 25 yards, measured center to center. And for gosh sake, do not, never, shoot three shots and call that your group...it alienates we old people who cannot get beyond traditional five-shot groups. Darn kids these days!
You cannot. Your group size has to be compared to some standard.
When I was a teenager, there were defacto accepted standards at which group-sizes could be compared for handgun shooting based on "Bullseye", off-hand, single-action, shooting (one handed, unsupported). The course of fire was usually 50 yards for slow-fire, and 25 yards for rapid fire for center-fire handguns (at that time .38 revolver and .45 automatics were pretty much standard). When one would talk about group size, it was assumed that it was a five-shot group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullseye_(shooting_competition)
In those days, after seeing and measuring enough groups, when someone would announce the size of the group he had just shot, one would know how good it was relative to those standards.
Nowadays, tradition has given way to forging ahead without spending the time to learn from what has been the tradtion before. That coupled with the demise of off-hand "Bullseye" shooting in favor of the more relevant-to-combat and self-defense practice (after all, no one today would consider one-handed shooting to be appropriate for combat/defensive shooting), that encourage double-tap, on multiple targets, the distances and the course of fire has changed.
Therefore, no standard distance except as prescribed for a particular event. But if you want to compare how good a group you can shoot compared to someone else, use five shots at 25 yards, measured center to center. And for gosh sake, do not, never, shoot three shots and call that your group...it alienates we old people who cannot get beyond traditional five-shot groups. Darn kids these days!
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The only purpose of my revolvers is personal defense. In that catagory 10 yards, or less, is the only range needed for accuracy. Beyond that distance it becomes a problem in my mind that a lethal threat existed that justified a draw. I am not a LEO and do not ride to the sound of the gunfire.
Pathfinder45
New member
Well, I use 25 yards as my standard handgun distance for most practice and ammo evaluation. What I find fault with when I read about a lot of these tests, is five shot groups from a six shot revolver. I always use six shot groups with six-guns.
jackmoser65
New member
I think this is a serious mistake. If you are good at 25yds, then you will be good at 10yds but the reverse is not true. I know that the average gunfight is a short distance but what if your threat is 30yds away? 50? Then you find yourself completely unprepared for your situation.
Some of the answers to the O.P.'s question do not relate to his primary question. I have bolded his primary question below.
He is asking about evaluating accuracy, not combat shooting, etc. He wants to know the standard by which to evaluate.
The standard has always been (like it, not like it, think it stupid, whatever), since Bullseye shooting was the sport, 25 yard groups of five.
A logical answer would seem to be, shoot a five shot group at 25 yards to evaluate the shooters ability or the gun/load (from support). Then when it is established that it is an accurate load and the shooter can shoot a good group, if he is concerned about the statistical average distance of a gun fight, practice then at 7 yards (or 21 feet, which ever is shorter).
He is asking about evaluating accuracy, not combat shooting, etc. He wants to know the standard by which to evaluate.
The standard has always been (like it, not like it, think it stupid, whatever), since Bullseye shooting was the sport, 25 yard groups of five.
A logical answer would seem to be, shoot a five shot group at 25 yards to evaluate the shooters ability or the gun/load (from support). Then when it is established that it is an accurate load and the shooter can shoot a good group, if he is concerned about the statistical average distance of a gun fight, practice then at 7 yards (or 21 feet, which ever is shorter).
Then, when I shoot a five-shot group from my five-shot revolvers, how can we compare groups? Do you want me to shoot a five-shot group and then reload for another single shot at my target? How can we determine who has the tightest group? Or will you let me just shoot five to your six?
He was posting about standards and evaluation.
dahermit said:
As others mentioned, shoot an appropriate NRA pistol target at its intended distance, calculate your score, and see where you stand according to the NRA classification system. It'll likely be a humbling exercise, but if you score around sharpshooter (or better), you're doing far better than most you'll see at your local range (sadly though, from what I've seen, that's not a very high bar).
And yeah, I know the OP's not asking about combat shooting, but I'll add something to this anyway:
Combat accuracy at combat distance is fine, so long as it's done at combat speed, in which case it ought to include a draw and reload. But being happy with "combat accuracy" at plinking speed is just a way to justify lousy shooting.
jackmoser65
New member
Excellent point!
Pathfinder45
New member
5 to 6?
Actually, dahermit, if we were competing, 5 to 5 would be fine. Or, I could just throw out my worst one, but that wouldn't be an even playing field. However, I wasn't thinking of competition, but rather, the evaluation of a revolvers accuracy using all chambers in the cylinder. Thus your five to my six is entirely appropriate. Got a 7 or 8 shot S&W? Use every chamber. It's a test of the gun, not you or me as shooters. Got a ransom rest? Bring it on. I wouldn't mind trying one myself. The point is, you could have less than ideal alignment of one or more chambers that might seriously affect the outcome of group size. You wouldn't likely detect it at 10 yards. But at 25 yards it will certainly show. So in my view, the standard for a revolver test should be groups at 25 yards using all chambers for each group. If you have a bottom-feeder, 5 shot groups will do. After that, if you and I wanted to have a little informal competition, we'd get off the bench, shoot off-hand and just have fun, and maybe share a beer after it's all put away. That's the way my buddy and I do it. See what the gun and ammo are capable of, and then see what you can do with it.
Actually, dahermit, if we were competing, 5 to 5 would be fine. Or, I could just throw out my worst one, but that wouldn't be an even playing field. However, I wasn't thinking of competition, but rather, the evaluation of a revolvers accuracy using all chambers in the cylinder. Thus your five to my six is entirely appropriate. Got a 7 or 8 shot S&W? Use every chamber. It's a test of the gun, not you or me as shooters. Got a ransom rest? Bring it on. I wouldn't mind trying one myself. The point is, you could have less than ideal alignment of one or more chambers that might seriously affect the outcome of group size. You wouldn't likely detect it at 10 yards. But at 25 yards it will certainly show. So in my view, the standard for a revolver test should be groups at 25 yards using all chambers for each group. If you have a bottom-feeder, 5 shot groups will do. After that, if you and I wanted to have a little informal competition, we'd get off the bench, shoot off-hand and just have fun, and maybe share a beer after it's all put away. That's the way my buddy and I do it. See what the gun and ammo are capable of, and then see what you can do with it.
I avoid the threat. Why move into the threat and escalate the problem ? I think it hard to recognize a lethal threat that is 50 yards away, unless you are in a war zone, in which case a J-Frame will be pretty useless. With 50 yards, I will be moving the other direction.
This is not to say I do not shoot my N-Frame at 25, and 50 yards on occasion, but not near as much as 10 yards Different strokes for different folks. My personal view is that my revolver is a 'Last resort' sort of thing, and not a tool I plan to use on a daily basis. For that I would take my carbine.
"Standard" means that it's not set by a fella in his backyard, or a couple of besties having a friendly shoot at the range. It's not a personal choice. It's not a preference or the best judgement call.
In the case of evaluating pistols and revolvers, either the accuracy of the gun or a load, or for organized competitive shooting the standard was set many decades back before even the formation of the NRA. In the 1800s organized civilian competitive shooting of pistols (single shot) and revolvers along with clubs for the same took shape. They spread across the country and united, competed and co-operated and set standards for their competitions which have lasted for over a century. Now and then they are adjusted some. The same occurred on the international level and has allowed for international competition. (There are variations but they are agreed upon by governing bodies which set standards for their sport.)
25 and 50 yards became a standard. 5 shot groups became a standard. This allowed a shooter who knew his/her gun to choose the 5 best chambers in the cylinder. This is why folks sometimes number their chambers. Competitive shooting is always about the shooter. The shooter knows their equipment and brings their best.
From there the 5 shot group for general evaluation purposes became "the standard" as well. 5 groups of 5 shots each has become a standard in the industry for evaluating the potential of a gun or a load.
Other things with other distances may be done by individuals for perfectly good reasons and can be their personal standards but are not "the standard".
The "combat" oriented action shooting sports have different standards altogether, size of a group not often among them.
tipoc
In the case of evaluating pistols and revolvers, either the accuracy of the gun or a load, or for organized competitive shooting the standard was set many decades back before even the formation of the NRA. In the 1800s organized civilian competitive shooting of pistols (single shot) and revolvers along with clubs for the same took shape. They spread across the country and united, competed and co-operated and set standards for their competitions which have lasted for over a century. Now and then they are adjusted some. The same occurred on the international level and has allowed for international competition. (There are variations but they are agreed upon by governing bodies which set standards for their sport.)
25 and 50 yards became a standard. 5 shot groups became a standard. This allowed a shooter who knew his/her gun to choose the 5 best chambers in the cylinder. This is why folks sometimes number their chambers. Competitive shooting is always about the shooter. The shooter knows their equipment and brings their best.
From there the 5 shot group for general evaluation purposes became "the standard" as well. 5 groups of 5 shots each has become a standard in the industry for evaluating the potential of a gun or a load.
Other things with other distances may be done by individuals for perfectly good reasons and can be their personal standards but are not "the standard".
The "combat" oriented action shooting sports have different standards altogether, size of a group not often among them.
tipoc