Shooting a Trapdoor

[Strafer Gott]

That's some old iron brother, besides the design limitations of the trap door.
Some of those "holy black" loads are actually pretty damned energetic. Shooting Remington government .45-70 factory loads are about as warm as you want to get. If I was shooting it, I'd keep it around sixty grains of black or Pyrodex by volume, which is hard enough to get in the case. I have a Harrington and Richardson from late in the last century for shooting, but I still won't push it too hard.

 

[James K]

Well the BP purists consider it a sacrilege to shoot anything but BP in any gun older than, say, 2013. But the factory .45-70 loads will be OK in any trapdoor in good condition, and many millions of smokeless loads have been fired in those guns over the years. Actually, the old trapdoor is stronger than most folks think, and rifles like the 86 Winchester are stronger yet. (Not to even mention modern Rugers, Marlins, etc.)

Copper jackets on modern ammo are still softer than the barrel steel, so within reason that is not a problem either.

Jim

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I only shoot my Sharps and Trapdoor with Black Powder. Cleaning a rifle of BP fouling is no big deal. No where near as messy as a revolver, where fouling is blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap and gets everywhere. A single shot cartridge rifle is just a pipe. It's a closed system. The brass keeps 99% of the fouling in the bore, where it belongs. When you're done, you just clean the pipe. Whatever water based BP solvent you like, a few patches down the bore, wipe off the lock, a patch lightly coated with Ballistol down the bore and squirt a little bit into the works and you're done. Total elapsed time about five minutes.

Yes, it is much messier than cleaning up after Smokeless, but it actually requires less elbow grease to clean up after BP than it does after Smokeless. Just don't clean it on the wife's new white carpet. The biggest problem comes when guys don't use a BP compatible bullet lube. Use modern lube and you are likely to get hard fouling that ruins accuracy and is difficult to remove.

And here's the big surprise. BP fouling is nowhere near as corrosive as most folks think. The problem used to be the BP fouling combined with corrosive primers or caps. We don't use corrosive primers or caps anymore, and BP fouling by itself is not as corrosive as it used to be with the corrosive primers.

 

[ridurall]

I recently picked up a 1873 trapdoor Springfield that had seen better days. I found a great barrelled action with the Original sight. I purchased new ejector, extractor, firing pin, main spring and trigger. It's like new now but one thing I noticed in looking at old black powder guns. Many people didn't clean out the ejector, extractor area very well. I now shoot mine with non corrosive substitute black powder. I also have a Shiloh Sharps and 1895 Marlin in 45/70.

 

[44 AMP]

.45-70 commercial ammo by the big 3 (Remington, Winchester, Federal) is down-loaded for exactly the rifle you have;..

Point of order:

The .45-70 405gr "standard" load from the big three is not down-loaded. (unless you consider the 405gr load to be a "download" from the 500gr load )

The regular 405gr factory ammo is loaded to match the pressures and velocities of the original black powder 405gr ammo.

The point about making sure the ammo for your Trapdoor is "safe in all rifles" is well taken. There are heavier loads on the market these days, ones that are not safe in the Trapdoor. The regular 405gr load is made to be safe in a Trapdoor.

Unless the OP says different, I will assume the ".405" is a typo for "45-70". That being the case, the fellow saying you could shoot modern ammo in the Trapdoor (the 405gr factory load) is essentially correct.

 

[mark clausen]

44AMP .405 is what I meant to type, not 45-70. However I think this solves the confusion caused by my initial question. I asked about shooting modern .405 ammunition when I bet the vendor at the gun show I initially wrote about was talking about .405 gr 45-70 loads. I just did some reading on wikipedia, (I know I know) there was also a 500 gr load listed after 1884 and a 300 gr load.

 

[44 AMP]

OK, lets clear up a few things....
When writing about caliber, including cartridge names, using standard English decimal system, it is proper to put the decimal point before the number (.45-70). When using metric measurement, do not put a decimal point at the beginning, only use it if it is somewhere in the middle of the name. (7mm Rem Mag, 7.62x39mm, 9mm Luger, etc.)

When talking about bullet weight in grains, do not use the decimal point (405gr, 500gr, etc.)

The confusion is that there is a 405gr .45 caliber bullet, and also a .405 Winchester cartridge. And, while the .405 Win is about half an inch longer than the .45-70, a quick check of case specs looks like it would possible to put a .405 Win into the chamber of a Trapdoor. If it is possible to get a .405 Win in there, firing it would be a disaster!

The .405 Winchester is a long straight (essentially) rimmed case, smaller in diameter at the front, than the .45-70 bore (so the longer case would extend beyond the chamber into the barrel), and with a rim size of .543" compared to the .45-70's .600" rim. So I think it would "chamber". The question then is, would the .405 round be held in the right place so the firing pin could set it off? I don't know, and don't have the ability to physically check. In any kind of repeater, the greater length of the .405 Win would keep it from working

Its a very, very, very BAD IDEA, even if it is physically possible, so its something to be careful to avoid. The .405 Winchester was made to launch a 300gr bullet at 2200fps, so firing one in a gun not made for it is high on the list of things NOT TO DO! "Warning! Danger! Danger Will Robinson!"

Sorry if I been to be harping on this, you probably aren't as confused as I think I am...

There are lead bullet 405gr smokeless powder loads available, (or at least as much as anything is these days), which would be the best ammo for you 1889 Trapdoor, if you don't care for using black powder. The 405gr Jacketed ammo is fine, but be aware some people claim it will wear the rifling faster than lead bullets. The old barrel steel wasn't made with jacketed bullets in mind. That being said, I know of one original Trapdoor that was used for a decade in cowboy action side matches and shot a lot with JSP bullets and never had any issues.