Shooting a handgun sideways

M

Memphis

New member
'Urban shooters' and Hollywood are rediculed by the gun culture for holding the gun 'wrong'. I'm not so sure. BGs have a good record for hitting their mark.
So thinking about that for a microsecond, if they are holding the gun sideways, they may be on to something. I think I figured it out what they are doing.

My guess is they're point shooting. I never thought of it before, but the natural way to point at something is with your hand sideways. Try it. Point at something right now. I asked my three kids to point at something- sideways hands, knuckles up.

Agree? If so, just how reliable are SEMIs fired sideways? It may be the better way to point shoot. The BGs may have one up on us as we spend our time practicing our stances, sighting down the sights, on an upright gun
thinking we're preparing for self defence.
 
I ran across a reliability testing page somewhere that listed a whole list of things to do to "qualify" your gun/ammo for defense use. One of the drills was to fire 4 magazines through the gun sideways (2 on the left side and 2 on the right side) My HK USP40C didn't have any trouble, but let me tell you this: After the 40th shot, I loaded another mag and went to take aim at my target ... I would have had a hard time hitting a cow at 15 yds my arms were shaking so much! Maybe if you trained that way it wouldn't be so tough ... and maybe 40 rounds is excessive, but I can still double tap a 6" group at 15 yards after 40 rounds in my normal stance.
 
I don't think the issue is necessarily the aiming. As a member of the medical career field I have a different view. It is a thing called Radial crossover. When the hand is turned palm down, the Radius bone crosses over the Ulna bone in the forearm. Not only is this sort of unstable, but the muscles of the forearm ar twisted as well. This diminishes the strength resulting in the "shaking" that Saands was referring to.
 
I think that if I did most of my shooting at two or three yards, I'd have a heckuva rep for hitting the mark...Across the counter at the local Stop'n'Rob doesn't call for much talent nor ability.

One hit out of a mag-full of cartridges doesn't impress me all that much either, as to the skill level of the doofus-club.

I do believe that for an unskilled shooter, pointing with the index finger and triggering with "the" finger can be productive. Having more than adequate skill with pistol or revolver, I'm not going to change to a new method...

FWIW, Art
 
Interesting that I don't know of many/any gun schools that teach defense shooting from "across the counter" at three feet, or how to carry without alarming the public yet be able to get it into action in those circumstances. Seems to me it would be more useful than off-hand barricade shooting at 50 yards.

Jim
 
I guess I brought this up because I just started training for point shooting having been convinced thru writings here and elsewhere I that I simply will not use the sights if under stress and surprise of a real encounter.
It seems plausible to me. So I started
training holding the gun upright 'like I
should'. I'm training for distances up to
about 30ft, because beyond that I think I'd
have the luxury of taking cover and aiming... maybe. Anyway, if sideways is reliable, I'll see if I hit better that way.
 
Here is what a person who tested one of my
"Test" P&S Index Finger Rests said. He works
for a police agency.

I have shot using the P&S method. I have had varied results.

I shot 700 rounds using the method with my S&W 4506.
100 at 1 yard (quick draw...shoot from the hip)
100 at 3 yards double tap technique
100 at 5 yards 3 rounds in 5 seconds
100 at 7 yards 3 rounds in 5 seconds
100 at 10 yards
100 at 15 yards
100 at 25 yards

From 10 yards and under, I found that it was extremely accurate...
and to be honest... how many gun fights will you get into at more
than that?

At the 15 yard mark, I had trouble keeping the target, until I
canted the weapon to the left (I'm a righty shooter)... gangster
style... but not as much cant... maybe 45 degrees.

At the 25 yard mark, I had trouble hitting the target. I can see
the potential for this technique, but I guess I must practice it
at long range to become extremely accurate.

I think I would be a great idea to have this technique taught at
the police academies and also have the gun manufacturers create a
grip with the guide built in... but maybe not as wide off the grip.
Maybe a 1/4 inch off the gun... just using it as support anyway.

For more info on P&S visit my web site: http://members.aol.com/okjoe/ps.htm
 
Actully if you think about it shoot it right side up, side ways or upside down, if your sights are lined up you will hit your mark.

House
 
Memphis, when the chips are down, most likely you will shoot the way you trained-IF (and that's a damn big IF) you took the training to heart, and have been sticking with the same program for quite a while.
I've talked with "front sight trained old timers" that have been involved in shootouts, and they tell me that they usually remember seeing a very clear front sight picture.
At very close ranges, it may not matter, but at any appreciable distance (7 ft. or more) I want to see a sight and be sure my lead isn't just decorating the landscape. "It's the bullet what finds the mark that does the damage."

------------------
Shoot straight regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center http://forums.delphi.com/m/main.asp?sigdir=45acp45lc
 
On a similar note I've found that 2 handed point shooting with the gun held at about sternum level will put the shots in a 3" group in the A zone @ 7 - 10yds for me.
A lot of guys have found that canting the gun at about 30degrees works in a strong hand only shoot.
As with anything, if you practice enough you'll eventually get good at it ! ;)

------------------
"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/
E-mail hotshot_2000@hotmail.com
Alternate E-mail
HS2000@ausi.com
 
JUNK GUNS!!! That is why you see the "gangstas" holding their guns sideways. In real life (not the movies) the BG doesn't have a Glock or Sig, he has a Jennings or Highpoint. The gun is held sideways so gravity can help with the ejection process and reduce the plentiful jams inherent in these cheaper weapons.

[This message has been edited by Dikyllis (edited February 14, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 45King:
I want to see a sight and be sure my lead isn't just decorating the landscape. "It's the bullet what finds the mark that does the damage."
[/B][/quote]

I absolutely agree and would also note that your bullet(s) which doesn't find its mark may well strike an uninvolved party. You are morally, legally, and ethically responsible for the resting place of every round you fire.

If a given shooter chooses to not use his sights and ends up in trouble because he hit someone other than his attacker, he sure wouldn't want me on the jury.

Rosco
 
I don't tilt my pistol over ninety degrees, but I do find that tilting it inboard 10-40 degrees when shooting one handed does feel more "natural". That's roughly the same angle my hand is at when I point with my index finger.
 
Check out the thread: "Middle digit is better
than using the index finger for pulling the
trigger." for related info. Part of the info
there is: ....since a pistol is not a small
rifle, why should you shoot it like it is one?
As a nationally known gun professional recently
said, at the NTI, inside 10 ft, no matter how
well trained the practitioner, everyone points
the gun and shoots.
 
Greetings Poster's, Sorry I'm a little late
on this one; but we had severe storms here
last evening, so the 'ole computer was shut
down!!! Back to the subject, I don't copy
ANYTHING that the BG's, gangbanger's, and
prep's do. I fight criminal's; I don't condone joining them. :)

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
House:

Not much physics, huh?? Think for a nannosecond about the mechanics of vertical sighting. Still think that sighting from a horizontal position is as accurate as from a vertical???

------------------
Shoot to kill; they'll stop when they're dead!
 
Ok, this makes me sick. Some non-gun hollywood director type thought it would be more dramatic if the actor held the gun 90 degrees and started using it in the movies.

Ignorant "gangsta" types see it in the movies and assume its valid and start to mimic it, because hey, everything in the movies is real. Wrong!

Massad Ayoob did a write up on this technique in the January 1998 issue of Handguns magazine. After testing the validity of the technique, the conclusion was that it was a joke technique invented by some non-gun hollywood director.

You'd be lucky to get 1 accurate hit before others went wild due to recoil. Massad even tried it with a Glock 18 machine pistol, not many shots connected with the intended target.

The fact that people try to mimic this "gangsta" technique doesn't surprise me.

Its very easy to mimic something when you're ignorant. How many times have you heard people say "you know what i'm saying?" or "i mean" after every sentence? Really makes them sound educated, doesn't it?

Holding a semi-auto handgun in your right hand rotated 90 degrees "gangsta style" points the ejection port skyward. The brass cases will eject upward and then fall back down into the ejection port possibly jamming your gun due to gravity. Especially if your
gun is more sensitive to limp wristing.

Is that what you want to have happen in a life or death situation? Because you saw
that it looked "cool" or "killer" or "trick" in some stupid movie?

C'mon... get some REAL training and stop trying to act out what you see in the movies.

Do you people have zero common sense?

[This message has been edited by dvc (edited February 14, 2000).]
 
The only reason I know of for holding sideways is to keep the priming in the pan and against the flash hole when shooting while mounted.

------------------
Panzerführer

Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.
 
On the other hand, the more ridiculous gun myths that can be perpetrated among gangbangers, the safer the Good Guys are. Maybe we can work on promoting the idea that if you turn the gun upside down and fire with the pinky finger.....

Seriously, if anyone ever has occasion to shoot at me, I hope they turn the gun on its side and "thrust" the gun forward while simultaneously pulling the trigger, just like in the movies. Everyone knows that the extra velocity you get by thrusting the muzzle as the bullet comes out of the end of the barrel makes the 9mm as effective as the .50 BMG. You just gotta time it right ;)
 
I happened across an interview with an actress whose name I cannot currently recall last night on TV. When asked how she managed to "look so real" during her action scenes she replied while mimicking holding a gun "I just do this...and I think it looks right." It did not... The interviewers obviously knew no better and complimented her on her savyness. The actress went on to say that she didn't look nearly as authentic as some of her collegues who "come from the street." They know "what to do" accourding to her. I wouldn't rely on mimicking actors if I were you.

As to why badguys have high hit rates compared to cops and civilians- they are very up close and personal, and almost always shooting first.

Erik
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top