Shootin Lead in my G-26 No Fouling

Master Blaster

New member
Lead reloads for a Glock 9mm
Well I have found a load that works and does not foul the polygonal rifling at all.

4.0 gr W231, WSP and using a Russell LRN.

The key is the bullet its made by a caster which my club buys from, The secret is the Brinell 18 hardness of the bullet, its similar to a jacketed bullet.

Sorry no Jacketed at our club due to a Zoning restriction, It was cop killer bullet year that year when the building was enlarged, and the brain trust that turned out for the zoning hearing included the Deputy Attorney General, who was worried we would shoot them thar kop killer bullets at our range, so No jacketed was put in the zoning variance.
 
hitnthexring, Shooting lead in a Glock isn't all that difficult, and it's also not dangerous if you use a little care. Yes, the polygonal rifling does lead easier than standard rifling, but tons of people shoot lead in their Glocks safely. The key is to make sure you check for excessive lead build-up, not just shoot until the gun stops shooting!
 
Why don't you guys post your chamber pressure readings, just to put our minds at ease?

I'm interested to see them since others have posted very high chamber pressures in similar experiments--even with very hard bullets and when barrel leading was negligible.

Also, lest we be led to believe that this is some sort of Glock "problem" it should be noted that Beretta recommends against the use of lead bullets in their 92 & 96 series autopistols--and they aren't even polygonal barrels.

(BTW, I don't actually expect a response since it's pretty obvious you have no readings to post.)

Posts like the above are tantamount to saying that thunderstorms are harmless and stating as proof that it must be true since you've never been struck by lightning.
 
There are two minor problems with lead, and neither is dangerous unless you are brain dead or significantly retarded (nevertheless, there seems to be a lot of these diseased people around, and attorneys love to make a living from these maladroit, didus ineptus individuals).

The first problem is with soft lead (brinel 16 or lower) or swaged bullets (which are soft lead also) or home cast that is soft. Yes, these will lead a barrel, and if allowed to get excessively encrusted will cause the pressure to rise to dangerous levels, especially in high pressure rounds. But used in moderation, with frequent cleaning, they are not a problem. High brinel (18 or higher) lead bullets cause very little problems

More significant is the leading of the chamber. Since most semi-autos are designed to head space off the front of the case (although that is not always true, as some head space off the extractor in reality), leading of the chamber can cause the case to be set back a silly millimeter or two, leaving the case unsupported. If the weapon will fire out of battery, like Glocks, this increasing head space continues, until the case catastrophically ruptures. Again, this is easily remedied by constantly examining the chamber.

Of significance to note, the majority of KABBOMS using lead are due to double charges, not the lead.
But the reporting on these mishaps always say it was the fault of using lead boooooolits, but investigations show it is not, and the misinformation goes on.

Shoney
 
Ditto what Shoney said. I have shot many HARD cast bullets out of both a 17 and 30 without problem. I clean the barrel about every 50 rounds just to make sure. I also just shoot light loads, nothing anywhere near maximum. I would stick with quality hard cast bullets such as BullX or Laser Cast. The only exception I would make is not shooting lead anything in a 40SW Glock or 357 Sig. As a matter of fact, I just shoot factory stuff through those two calibers. I've heard too many problems with 40 Kabooms and bullet set back with the 357.
 
Why don't you guys post your chamber pressure readings, just to put our minds at ease?
My mind is at ease, why don't you do the tests and prove that we don't know what we're talking about? Oh, you can't be bothered? I thought so... :)
 
JohnKSa:

Several thousand lead 180 TC out of my HK USP40c at 1005 fps avg. give me plenty of pressure tests. I have loaded the same 300 Win brass about 11 times each now with this load, and there is no sign of brass fatigue, or bulge, or cracking, or any malfunction of any kind.

Follow the simple rules: Load at moderate pressures, checking the barrel after each magazine of high brinel lead, firing a magazine or two of jacketed bullets after each 50 rounds lead, clean the weapon meticulously after session of lead. Not a hickup.

My pressure tests are complete and accurate. I challenge your challenge.

SHOW ME THE PUBLISHED DATA YOU BASE YOUR ASSUMPTIONS ON!

Regards, Shoney
 
When you post your chamber pressure readings, I'll be happy to post the ones I'm aware of and we'll see how they compare.

BTW, the experiential data being quoted is worthless. Here's why. Using the same logic, since thousands of people drove Ford Explorers with underinflated Firestones and DIDN'T get killed--there's no problem. What about all the people who go out in thunderstorms and don't get struck by lightning, all the people who play russian roulette and live, all the people who have unprotected sex and don't get AIDS, all the people who don't look both ways crossing the street and make it to the other side, all the people who don't get their vaccinations but never catch tetanus. All the people who smoke but don't get lung cancer, all the people who chew tobacco but don't get mouth cancer, all the people who drink and drive but don't get killed.

Even for people who disregard the rules, catastrophic events are still unlikely. So it is with kB!s.

Let's hear numbers guys--ones with psi or cup after them. Anything else is BS.
 
I have reservations.

In the first place, most all manufacturers warn against reloaded ammunition. The assumption is that factories are safer than us guys. So Glock's (and any manufacturer's) warning regarding reloads or lead bullets is not very well founded in my mind.

Glock bores are supposedly "smooth" surfaced. If that is true, why do they lead? Leading is exacerbated by roughness and mitigated by smoothness.

Someone mentioned lead bullets don't properly obdurate; therefore the gas blows around the corners of the rifling and causes leading. The objection is, a bullet sized to groove diameter does not have to obdurate; it has rifling engraved in it. From where comes the gaps in the corners of the rifling?

The comment about leading the chamber. I presume the poster meant the rifling at the end of the chamber. (Not much lead exposed in my chambers....) This build up causes a round to not chamber fully. Then if the gun fires when out of battery....
I really don't like the thought of a firearm that fires when out of battery. I follow the train of thought, but I'd just as soon stick with a pistol with a properly designed and functioning disconnector.
I suppose someone will defend this by saying this function is to ensure reliability when dirty. Great! I can nail one bad guy with the bullet and if I hold the gun sideways, I can get number two with the magazine when it blows out.

I reload and shoot lead bullets in my H&K USP 40 regularly. It has a true polygonal barrel, and leads very lightly. I don't have problems with it. I do use Oregon Trail bullets. And these are not top margin loads, either.

Oddly, I've shot lots and lots of high end .357 and .44 Magnum loads with lead bullets. I've had barrels lead to the point accuracy was really suffering. Never had any pressure problems. Anybody know why revolvers are immune to the "leaded-barrel-high-pressure" syndrome?

JohnKSa, I like your idea. The best answer to "lack of knowledge" is knowledge. I actually do have a pressure testing device, but it requires a strain guage mounted (super-glued) to the chamber. I don't have a Glock of my own, and the mounting is difficult on an autopistol, due to the wires from the guage.

Someday I have to get a Contender and about 50 different barrels. Anyone want to contribute to scientific study?
 
This is where the fabled Glock KBs come from.

Lead can look just as shiny as the barrel. You may not be able to make it out. But I bet some solvent will find plenty.

It's a hidden danger. If it looked obvious - KBs wouldn't happen! Duh!

Is it really worth the risk? Seriously... Personal injury aside, the fact you could ruin your gun would to me at lest make such a thing NOT WORTH THE RISK.
Hey, I don't need all 5 fingers anyways.... I could lose a few and still have plenty! Hey, I could still count to 8 right?

:rolleyes:

Don't shoot lead.

And I don't want to get the email some months later saying "Well, you were right." I've had a couple of those and they make me sick.
 
If there honestly was some important data out there, which would save someone from injury, what kind of person would deliberately withhold it?

Today I saw several kindergarteners just getting off the bus. One particularly obnoxious kid was singsonging:

I know something you don't, Ha...ha....ha.ha....ha!
I know something you don't, Ha...ha....ha.ha....ha!
If you want to know, you gotta play my way, Ha...ha....ha.ha....ha!
And if you don’t, I’ll hold my breath until I turn blue.

Sound familiar anyone?
 
Shoney,

Listen, I asked for some data to support claims that were made.

A reasonable and prudent request.

Then, because there was no such data, it immediately devolved into a "you show me yours, I'll show you mine" interchange. I'm not going to get involved in anything that childish and I'll tell you why. The simple fact is that anyone on the web has access to the same data I do. I'm not withholding anything and you bloody well know it.

But, I'll tell you what, just in case you really don't know how to use a search engine, here's the "important data" spelled out.

Shooting lead bullets in a Glock, even very hard bullets (up to 24 BHN) will result in higher than normal chamber pressures which can reach dangerous levels after just a few rounds even when there is negligible visible leading in the barrel.

You know what I find obnoxious?

Self-appointed experts, whose sole qualification is that they haven't blown up a gun yet, advocating that people disregard manufacturer recommendations.

Sound familiar?

Let me ask you a question. What's your vested interest in trying to get people to shoot lead through their Glocks? Is this some sort of a twisted "potential misery loves company" thing?

If you want to shoot lead through your Glock and you found a way to do it that makes you feel safe, then KNOCK YOURSELF OUT. Neither I nor anybody else gives a rip as far as I can tell. But TRY to refrain from recruiting others to follow in your footsteps until you have something approaching scientific data to validate your theory.

You know what else irritates me? The fact that you're making me out to be a bad guy because I'm trying to make sure that people know the other side of a potentially dangerous practice. Is there some reason I shouldn't warn people that it's generally accepted that shooting lead through Glocks is dangerous? If there is, why don't you explain how I'm doing a disservice to the shooting community...

Regards,

John
 
Gents, gents, gents.....................

I've said it before, and I've been flamed for it.

But, until you have the same testing equipment as the manufacturer, why don't you listen to the manufacturer's recommendations?

Glock specifically warns not to use lead-bulleted ammunition in their pistols. Don't you think that they have a reason for this? Or perhaps, some people would think that they don't have a clue.

Let me try to explain this:

1. The leading left in a polygonal rifled barrel has NOTHING to do with hardness. It has everything to do with lubricity.

Lead is very slick. Remember when they used to put lead in gasoline to eliminate knock?

When fired from a conventional rifled barrel, lead accepts rifling with a minimum of wear on the bore. That's why my M29 still has nice, sharp rifling after about 11,000 rounds.

When fired in a polygonal barrel, on the other hand, the bullet actually skids across the first portion of the rifling. This is where the lead is deposited. It builds unnoticeably until it gets to the point where the bullet is trapped for a microsecond, unable to overcome the resistance of the lead immediately. There, pressure spikes. Then, kaboom!

You all might say that you are smarter than the manufacturer. You might say that the lead bullets you are using are causing no problems. Yes, you just might be lucky.

But why take the chance? Spend a bit, and buy an aftermarket barrel. Use your cast bullets to your heart's content. Then, when you use factory jacketed or carry ammo, use the Glock barrel.
 
If you read your Glock owner's manual, there is no mention in any of them about lead, only reloads. In this day of lawsuits over anything, I find it hard to believe that they would not mention this in the owner's manual...:confused:
 
JohnKSa :

I have done extensive searches on this topic when i got my 40S&W, Ask Jeeves, Google, Dogpile, Altavista, and so on. You obviously have not.

I have only found "Well so and so said" postings, and many have been refuted by experts. In over 400 articles I found and read, the only statements of danger were from shooting lead without frequent cleaning. That is a given, no argument. But to say prudent shooting and with regular cleaning still results in problems is irresponsible.

Again, I challenge you to present documented evidence that shooting lead causes problems, when there is regular and thourough cleaning of the barrel and chamber.

Guess it's put up or shut up time on your part.
 
Shoney,

I went to my favorite search engine, typed in "glock" and "kabooms" and the FIRST entry on the VERY LONG list was an article by a forensic mechanical engineer which stated almost exactly what I did in my last post.

www.angelfire.com/co3/markcolo/kabooms.html

I'm not sure what you thought you were going to prove...

Are you all through now? Or would you like me to do some more research for you?

Regards,

John
 
Badshot,

They state that no reloaded ammunition is to be used. There is no commercial 9mm ammunition loaded with lead bullets.

I know, here's where I get the replies that ALL manufacturers make that statement... Well, maybe they do. That doesn't change the fact that when you ignore a manufacturer's recommendation you're taking your chances. Where Glocks are concerned, you greatly increase your chances of a kB! if you ignore their recommendation.

While there have been a few Glock kB!s with good quality commercial ammo (mostly 180 grain .40 S&W), it seems that most occur with reloads (nearly ALL the 9mm kB!s do)--or, in other words, they happen to people who disregard the manufacturer's recommendations.

Part of the blame has to go to our litigious society which has driven manufacturers (not just gun makers) to put warning labels and restrictive recommendations on nearly all products. The result has been that it is commonplace for people to ignore those recommendations. It's instructive to remember that it costs money to come up with those recommendations and it costs money to print manuals or mark products. Companies aren't in the business of spending money for nothing. If they put the warnings there, it's because they think they'll be liable for damages if they didn't. If you ignore them, you run the risk of being the reason the warnings are printed in the first place.

Regards,

John
 
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