Shoot to stop?

Carry24x7, the incident with the 49 shots is one of several discussed in the video "Deadly Effects: Wound Ballistics" which goes into great detail on exactly what bullets do to human bodies. It goes into crime scene and forensic data and is not for those with a weak stomach.
 
Let me offer a different opinion. I always see & hear people talk about doubletaps, head shots and center mass. IMO they are all no good. Why doubletap when one controlled shot will do. I don't want to have to explain to the DA why I shot the BG twice, or in the head, when the first shot would have sufficed. Overzealous, reckless, whatever... the courts would eat me up. I'm not out to kill, plain and simple.
To me that is shoot to kill. If I have to , then I have to. BUT I will exhaust all other means first. Another thing, doubletaps to center mass don't work on those w/ vests.
As far as center mass, the BG isn't going to stand there like your B-mod target, square to you while you shoot. You might only see an arm, knee, a$$, but not likely a whole body. Where do you shoot then? Where did center mass go? If there is NO cover for the BG, then in order to shoot to STOP, I aim for the pelvec girdle. No worries about a vest, no dbltaps. Put a round in there or take out a hip BG'll drop like a rock. The will to fight should be gone as soon as he figures out he can't get up or move his leg. From there take action as the scenario develops.
 
I'm not a huge fan of the double tap. I do believe & preach in shooting accurate shots - multiple rounds - until the Threat is eliminated.
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The original poster asked about shoot to *stop*, not eliminate, that's the position I thought this from. Granted depending on what may happen BG *may* get eliminated.

Industry standard, if you will, is multiple rounds, as many as are needed until the threat is eliminated. District Attorney's are politicians. They either will or will not play games with you, but I doubt it will be over a few rounds. That said, go through a magazine change and keep shooting, you'll probably have some grief. Find out what the case law, criminal & civil, in your state has said on this issue. Find out what the standard training response for local officers is. Again though, one round may not stop the Threat and that is your first priority.
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Agreed. I picked up a CCW permit application :barf: for my wife.
They now make applicants go through a home firearms training course. From the pamphlet: The course was developed as an awareness program of gun safety, legal requirements of self-defense.
I plan on taking tis course as it's the first one in the area and I have a lot of questions.

Just realize that all you've done - if the shot & effect are successful - is take away the mobility issue. If armed with a firearm, the Threat can still shoot. It may have more validity against an individual armed with a weapon that requires proximity.
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Regarding the pelvic girdle shot. As stated before, the scenario was 'shoot to stop'. *IF* the shot was good and BG drops he isn't going anywhere. It is also instinct that we will have found some type of cover. So in that event, BG down me behind cover,
will wait for LEO's who shouldn't be far behind.

Oh yes, forgot the Armor issue. Handgun ammo won't work on most vests. Handgun ammo also has poor track records on Goblins using CNS depressants & stimulants, those with mental health issues that seem to eliminate pain response and those who are extremely dedicated.
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I know handgun ammo will not have an effect on a vest which is why I , given the opportunity, would take the PG shot. Even if the BG is "drugged to the hills" if he can't walk, he can't move.

You are quite articulate in stating your view. I, however, respectfully disagree with it.
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Thank You, This wouldn't be America if you couldn't dissagree. You brought up good points which made me think about this a little deeper.

If the time has come to use Lethal Force, one needs to use it immediately and continue to use it until the threat ceases. I do not believe your view leads that end result.
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I suppose that what I was getting at was to *stop* the threat with as few rounds as nessessary. I can't say what I'd do untill I'm put in that position. I just want to say again that these views are from the point of view that I'm shooting to stop, not to kill. If I have to empty two mags or the BG dies so be it, however stopping does not mean killing. It just helps your position in court. We all know that we will be in court following a shooting. Givin today's litagous society it's about guaranteed. :barf: :barf: If I shot twice and BG lived... (I think) would look better in court than dumping a mag or two and killing said BG.

This is a great discussion. There are SO many variables they can't all be covered. You helped me cement the idea of going to that safety course. I've been putting it off
 
If I have to use deadly force, I do not care if BG-Prime dies. I do care that BG-Prime stops his aggressive actions.

A classic example of this is the Miami Massacre back in 1986. Platt received a fatal gunshot wound in his chest. If he had been transported a al a Star Trek Transporter to the best trauma hospitalin the country, he would have still died. Unfortunately, the fact that he was dying didn't stop his aggressive actions. After receiving the fatal wound he went on to shoot and/or kill several more FBI agents.

Death is incidental in a judicous use of deadly force. BG-Prime stopping his actions ASAP is the primary concern.

Of course, it is better to overestimate the amount of shooting someone needs than to underestimate it.:)

"Anyone worth shooting is worth shooting alot."



Gomez
 
Well, there is a difference between killing and stopping. Platt was killed, but not stopped. At least not immediately, which is what that really matters.

Mike
 
In a gunfight shoot to kill. After when someone asks, say you shot to stop the attack. You must tell anyone who asks you, you shot to stop the attack. Also most intructors teach you to shoot & keep shooting until the attack stops.
 
A number of posters in this thread have stated "..the law requires you to shoot to stop." My expertise is limited to the PDRK (CA), which does not say anything about shooting to stop, shooting to incapacitate, shooting to neutralize, etc.

California law merely addresses and defines when homicide is justifiable. Whatever politically correct term you use to get there is irrelevant. What is necessary is that you were in mortal fear that the person you killed was about to kill or inflict great bodily harm to you or to another innocent person.

The smart shooter shoots for center of mass because that is the easiest target to hit under stress. That 95% of the vital organs are located there is mere coincidence. The fact that you punctured enough of those vital organs may cause your target to bleed to death is an unfortunate circumstance. If he chose to attack you, he called the dance. You merely punched his dance card.

Is making a head shot first instead of two to center of mass indicative of your intention to kill, not stop? Nonsense. There are times when a head shot is highly recommended, i.e., your intended target is holding a gun on another person and you want to instantly stop him without him reflexively pulling the trigger.
 
Erick I was trying to point out the difference between what 1 does during a gunfight & then what 1 says after. The goal is to stop the attack. Now there are different ways to achieve that goal. Most instructors teach firing 2 rds COM first. Then if that fails to stop 1 shot to the head. I had a instructor that said firing to the head was too hard to do & head shot resault in misses. So he said then fire 2 rds to the groin because that presented a bigger target. In fact he further said you should shoot to the groin to start. The reason is severing the spine were it enters the tail bone. Severing the spine will stop the attack. I've also heard to aim for the area between the breast bone & the neck for the same reason. The original poster had a training instructor that said not to take a kill shot because of how that would look in court. Thats nonsense. Thinking about I'm I taking a kill shot or not will lead to hesitation. Hesitation will get 1 killed. Now when say shoot to kill. In do way do I suggest shooting to kill an attacker after the attack is stopped.
 
About shooting for the pelvis:

The base of the spine is narrow. Even if you hit it they can still shoot at you with their upper body. Plus that shot would be more luck than skill.

A severed femoral artery will cause death, but it usually takes a few minutes.

Most pistol bullets do not have the power to break a pelvic bone. Most likely the bullet will glance off. And even if it does break the bone, the bad guy can still shoot.

Shooting the BG in the groin will hurt a lot, but it won't be immediatly fatal. Same with the intestines.

So frankly I don't see the logic to taking a pelvic shot vs. a head shot. And where are all these super armored bad guys coming from now? I'm only aware of a handfull, ever.
 
I'm currently reading "The Law of Self Defense - A Guide for the Armed Citizen" by Andrew F. Branca. If you have a CWP it's a 'must read'.

As the title implies, it goes into what you need to know if you ever are involved in a self-defense shooting. Though it's a little dry/technical in places, it's generally an easy read and it makes its points with both the law and case law examples.

The reason you NEVER want to say "I shot to kill" goes to intent. If you intended to kill the perp, you will likely be charged with murder, because your intent was to kill someone, not stop an attack or neutralize the threat (I say 'likely', becasue, as the author points out, self-defense law is a fairly fluid thing, highly situational and dependendent on the state where the shooting occurred). Lethal force is justifyable only when it is necessary to kill to prevent being killed or gravely injured. HTH.
 
All right now: How do you stop the midget pointing a .454 Casull at you over the top of a brick wall? Or the amok kevlar sandwich man running at you with a 14-inch carving knife? Or the deranged sewer-swab blasting at you from his manhole with an AK-47?

Shooting to stop = CNS shot
 
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